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Does diversity provide anything that meritocracy does not?



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I'm hoping my question is less broad than this one. I work in tech and see many emails about diversity from our upper management.



In some sense, I can see this being used as a PR tactic: management wants the company to look diverse because the shareholders care about the public image of the company and don't want it to look like some kind of exclusionary club... but how can one know if motivations for diversity and inclusion are anything more than a PR move? As far as I can tell, this is unknowable.



Moreover, assuming a company had no need for PR (maybe a large, private company with no real media presence,) would the policy of diversity and inclusion actually have any benefits over using raw meritocratic measurements in interviews? Meritocracy or a "competence hierarchy" does a fine job in allowing a person's performance to qualify him/her for a position - so why would diversity policies be needed to "augment" or replace this?



Note that I am not assuming that the recruiting process is done by biased people who only want to surround themselves with people who look alike - I am specifically asking why do unbiased people believe that some (non-PR) utility would be provided to their companies by hiring a more diverse staff instead of simply relying on meritocracy itself?



I have heard that racial/gender diversity provides a company with more "cognitive diversity" - but is such an idea valid? Do recruiters actually believe in a "latino way of thinking" or a "female way of thinking" as if they were trying to create a company culture using individuals as recipe ingredients? In my mind, it is stereotypical to judge an individual as a member of a group without knowing them personally.. but perhaps I have failed to grasp the concept of "cognitive diversity"? Thanks in advance.










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  • 7





    Little bit opinionated tone the title has. Maybe you can make it sound a bit more neutral? This is an important question and it needs a good answer.

    – leymannx
    8 hours ago






  • 2





    Note that the thing that is "diverse" is pretty important but usually gets politically overlooked.

    – chrylis
    5 hours ago






  • 11





    I am not assuming that the recruiting process is done by biased people. You assume away the major reason for diversity policy. That's a bit like asking what's the point of our company's fire drills, assuming that there will never be a fire. For a concrete example of bias, see the video in Glen Pierce's answer below.

    – henning
    4 hours ago








  • 3





    Possible duplicate of Why is diversity in the workplace important?

    – eirikdaude
    3 hours ago






  • 2





    For the purposes of this question, can we define what constitutes diversity? May we assume we're talking about demographics?

    – rath
    3 hours ago
















31















I'm hoping my question is less broad than this one. I work in tech and see many emails about diversity from our upper management.



In some sense, I can see this being used as a PR tactic: management wants the company to look diverse because the shareholders care about the public image of the company and don't want it to look like some kind of exclusionary club... but how can one know if motivations for diversity and inclusion are anything more than a PR move? As far as I can tell, this is unknowable.



Moreover, assuming a company had no need for PR (maybe a large, private company with no real media presence,) would the policy of diversity and inclusion actually have any benefits over using raw meritocratic measurements in interviews? Meritocracy or a "competence hierarchy" does a fine job in allowing a person's performance to qualify him/her for a position - so why would diversity policies be needed to "augment" or replace this?



Note that I am not assuming that the recruiting process is done by biased people who only want to surround themselves with people who look alike - I am specifically asking why do unbiased people believe that some (non-PR) utility would be provided to their companies by hiring a more diverse staff instead of simply relying on meritocracy itself?



I have heard that racial/gender diversity provides a company with more "cognitive diversity" - but is such an idea valid? Do recruiters actually believe in a "latino way of thinking" or a "female way of thinking" as if they were trying to create a company culture using individuals as recipe ingredients? In my mind, it is stereotypical to judge an individual as a member of a group without knowing them personally.. but perhaps I have failed to grasp the concept of "cognitive diversity"? Thanks in advance.










share|improve this question




















  • 7





    Little bit opinionated tone the title has. Maybe you can make it sound a bit more neutral? This is an important question and it needs a good answer.

    – leymannx
    8 hours ago






  • 2





    Note that the thing that is "diverse" is pretty important but usually gets politically overlooked.

    – chrylis
    5 hours ago






  • 11





    I am not assuming that the recruiting process is done by biased people. You assume away the major reason for diversity policy. That's a bit like asking what's the point of our company's fire drills, assuming that there will never be a fire. For a concrete example of bias, see the video in Glen Pierce's answer below.

    – henning
    4 hours ago








  • 3





    Possible duplicate of Why is diversity in the workplace important?

    – eirikdaude
    3 hours ago






  • 2





    For the purposes of this question, can we define what constitutes diversity? May we assume we're talking about demographics?

    – rath
    3 hours ago














31












31








31


5






I'm hoping my question is less broad than this one. I work in tech and see many emails about diversity from our upper management.



In some sense, I can see this being used as a PR tactic: management wants the company to look diverse because the shareholders care about the public image of the company and don't want it to look like some kind of exclusionary club... but how can one know if motivations for diversity and inclusion are anything more than a PR move? As far as I can tell, this is unknowable.



Moreover, assuming a company had no need for PR (maybe a large, private company with no real media presence,) would the policy of diversity and inclusion actually have any benefits over using raw meritocratic measurements in interviews? Meritocracy or a "competence hierarchy" does a fine job in allowing a person's performance to qualify him/her for a position - so why would diversity policies be needed to "augment" or replace this?



Note that I am not assuming that the recruiting process is done by biased people who only want to surround themselves with people who look alike - I am specifically asking why do unbiased people believe that some (non-PR) utility would be provided to their companies by hiring a more diverse staff instead of simply relying on meritocracy itself?



I have heard that racial/gender diversity provides a company with more "cognitive diversity" - but is such an idea valid? Do recruiters actually believe in a "latino way of thinking" or a "female way of thinking" as if they were trying to create a company culture using individuals as recipe ingredients? In my mind, it is stereotypical to judge an individual as a member of a group without knowing them personally.. but perhaps I have failed to grasp the concept of "cognitive diversity"? Thanks in advance.










share|improve this question
















I'm hoping my question is less broad than this one. I work in tech and see many emails about diversity from our upper management.



In some sense, I can see this being used as a PR tactic: management wants the company to look diverse because the shareholders care about the public image of the company and don't want it to look like some kind of exclusionary club... but how can one know if motivations for diversity and inclusion are anything more than a PR move? As far as I can tell, this is unknowable.



Moreover, assuming a company had no need for PR (maybe a large, private company with no real media presence,) would the policy of diversity and inclusion actually have any benefits over using raw meritocratic measurements in interviews? Meritocracy or a "competence hierarchy" does a fine job in allowing a person's performance to qualify him/her for a position - so why would diversity policies be needed to "augment" or replace this?



Note that I am not assuming that the recruiting process is done by biased people who only want to surround themselves with people who look alike - I am specifically asking why do unbiased people believe that some (non-PR) utility would be provided to their companies by hiring a more diverse staff instead of simply relying on meritocracy itself?



I have heard that racial/gender diversity provides a company with more "cognitive diversity" - but is such an idea valid? Do recruiters actually believe in a "latino way of thinking" or a "female way of thinking" as if they were trying to create a company culture using individuals as recipe ingredients? In my mind, it is stereotypical to judge an individual as a member of a group without knowing them personally.. but perhaps I have failed to grasp the concept of "cognitive diversity"? Thanks in advance.







recruitment company-culture hiring diversity






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edited 3 hours ago









Mister Positive

61.7k33203246




61.7k33203246










asked 11 hours ago









Karen34Karen34

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  • 7





    Little bit opinionated tone the title has. Maybe you can make it sound a bit more neutral? This is an important question and it needs a good answer.

    – leymannx
    8 hours ago






  • 2





    Note that the thing that is "diverse" is pretty important but usually gets politically overlooked.

    – chrylis
    5 hours ago






  • 11





    I am not assuming that the recruiting process is done by biased people. You assume away the major reason for diversity policy. That's a bit like asking what's the point of our company's fire drills, assuming that there will never be a fire. For a concrete example of bias, see the video in Glen Pierce's answer below.

    – henning
    4 hours ago








  • 3





    Possible duplicate of Why is diversity in the workplace important?

    – eirikdaude
    3 hours ago






  • 2





    For the purposes of this question, can we define what constitutes diversity? May we assume we're talking about demographics?

    – rath
    3 hours ago














  • 7





    Little bit opinionated tone the title has. Maybe you can make it sound a bit more neutral? This is an important question and it needs a good answer.

    – leymannx
    8 hours ago






  • 2





    Note that the thing that is "diverse" is pretty important but usually gets politically overlooked.

    – chrylis
    5 hours ago






  • 11





    I am not assuming that the recruiting process is done by biased people. You assume away the major reason for diversity policy. That's a bit like asking what's the point of our company's fire drills, assuming that there will never be a fire. For a concrete example of bias, see the video in Glen Pierce's answer below.

    – henning
    4 hours ago








  • 3





    Possible duplicate of Why is diversity in the workplace important?

    – eirikdaude
    3 hours ago






  • 2





    For the purposes of this question, can we define what constitutes diversity? May we assume we're talking about demographics?

    – rath
    3 hours ago








7




7





Little bit opinionated tone the title has. Maybe you can make it sound a bit more neutral? This is an important question and it needs a good answer.

– leymannx
8 hours ago





Little bit opinionated tone the title has. Maybe you can make it sound a bit more neutral? This is an important question and it needs a good answer.

– leymannx
8 hours ago




2




2





Note that the thing that is "diverse" is pretty important but usually gets politically overlooked.

– chrylis
5 hours ago





Note that the thing that is "diverse" is pretty important but usually gets politically overlooked.

– chrylis
5 hours ago




11




11





I am not assuming that the recruiting process is done by biased people. You assume away the major reason for diversity policy. That's a bit like asking what's the point of our company's fire drills, assuming that there will never be a fire. For a concrete example of bias, see the video in Glen Pierce's answer below.

– henning
4 hours ago







I am not assuming that the recruiting process is done by biased people. You assume away the major reason for diversity policy. That's a bit like asking what's the point of our company's fire drills, assuming that there will never be a fire. For a concrete example of bias, see the video in Glen Pierce's answer below.

– henning
4 hours ago






3




3





Possible duplicate of Why is diversity in the workplace important?

– eirikdaude
3 hours ago





Possible duplicate of Why is diversity in the workplace important?

– eirikdaude
3 hours ago




2




2





For the purposes of this question, can we define what constitutes diversity? May we assume we're talking about demographics?

– rath
3 hours ago





For the purposes of this question, can we define what constitutes diversity? May we assume we're talking about demographics?

– rath
3 hours ago










9 Answers
9






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60














Here's a Harvard Business Review study on why diverse teams outperform homogeneous teams.



Diverse teams are more innovative and focus on facts better than homogeneous teams. However, it's not as simple as throwing a bunch of different people together and hoping that things work out, as this article points out.



Now if you're interested in something beyond abstract notions of "productivity" and why diversity matters, look at this. It's a soap dispenser that doesn't dispense soap to people who aren't white because a team of white people never thought to test it on skin tones apart from theirs. Don't be that team.



I work on an amazing and very diverse team. I'm better because of the diversity in my team (I get to engage with people of different skill levels, from different perspectives, with different priorities, etc.) When building teams, looking entirely for a stack of uniformly excellent 10X engineers will be both costly and counterproductive. We focused on building a 10X team, as described in this article, and we did. I'm extremely happy on my team.






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  • 19





    The interesting thing about that article you link; is that it's talking about diversity in management... This is not what OP is talking about; as it is management trying to get the workforce more diverse; not getting themselves more diverse (who would want to put themselves out the job for the sake of the company?!). I suspect that having the main workforce of a car factory would make no difference what so ever - and may even harm production if the diverseness means less physically able.

    – UKMonkey
    6 hours ago






  • 13





    Where is the evidence that the soap dispenser was developed by a team of white people? It was probably developed in China.

    – James
    5 hours ago






  • 12





    I cant help but feel that this Harvard Study is implying "diversity" as in, different mindsets and social/educational backgrounds - i dont think a team with mixed ethnics has different performance than a team with non-diverse ethnics. Gender might be true, since men and women have proved to approach challenges in different ways.

    – Flying Thunder
    5 hours ago






  • 4





    @FlyingThunder how about reading the article instead of guessing? I mean, it's literally in the second sentence.

    – DonQuiKong
    4 hours ago






  • 17





    It's important to highlight that successful teams tend to be diverse, but diverse teams are not necessarily, or inherently, more successful. I say this because it's easy to put the horse before the cart in some cases. A successful team with a decent diversity score (if you want to quantify it) is a good indicator of a) an HR team that can deal with anything you can throw at it, and b) team members who can empathise with their fellow human beings. Again, you don't need diversity to do that, but it can be a marker of such things.

    – rath
    3 hours ago





















39














The general problem here is that the "merit" in meritocracy needs to be measured in some quantitative way. It's not an objective or absolute quantity. Organizations or teams that have a blind spot are often not aware that they have a blind spot and hence they won't be able to fill it.



Diversity helps you to broaden your definition of merit and create more balanced value system






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  • I like this answer best as it explicitly points out that meritocracy and diversity aren't mutually exclusive. It just broadens the scope to recognize that a team composed of people different from backgrounds has its own merits.

    – Nuclear Wang
    2 hours ago






  • 4





    yeah, the question assumes these decisions will be made by "unbiased people". these people do not exist

    – aw04
    2 hours ago













  • You need to explain what you mean. Please tell me how diversity helps you "define" merit. Please explain why my value system will be more "balanced" and what a "balanced" value system even is and why its desirable.

    – a1s2d3f4
    59 mins ago



















34














I work in a big IT company (100.000+ employee) and I am a racial minority. Here is what I was told from an HR representative when I was promoted as a manager:




We need to hire smart and talented people. Smart and talented people can come from any background, including diverse gender, diverse sexualities, diverse skin color, diverse level of disability, etc...



If a division of the company turns out to be seen a toxic by a given demographic, we lose the ability to hire from this demographic.



For example, if you let lewd jokes, harassment, belittlement create a toxic environment for women, we lose 50% of our hiring prospect, which will result in having less choice from where to select talented people. As a result, you will have to work with dummies.



So, be open to diversity and work with smart people, or else you will have to work with dummies.




What I find funny is that I had to be promoted manager to hear this sensible argument. As long as I was a junior, all HR gave me as a justification was the usual BS ("diversity is cool, mmh 'kay? Don't be bad"). Being a minority, I value diversity, but like you I was doubtful, as if a company whose primary objective is to make money would care...






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  • 3





    You had to wait until you were promoted manager to hear this, because the pseudo-statistical argument is nonsense, and only managers can get away with believing nonsense without screwing up the quality of your company's products. Suppose that males and females are equally diverse, and the proportion of "smart" males and females is identical. Now, if your company is recruiting, you will get the same proportion of "smart" applicants from 100% male applicants, 100% female applicants, or anything in between. Oops, HR's argument just flew out of the window.

    – alephzero
    4 hours ago








  • 1





    I am unclear as to whether you are answering this question or not. The text you provide from HR seems to answer that "yes there are benefits on diversity at the workplace" but you don't seem to agree with that.

    – fireshark519
    4 hours ago






  • 17





    @alephzero you might get the same proportion of male applicants, but you don't get the same overall number as half your potential applicants haven't applied

    – tddmonkey
    4 hours ago






  • 6





    @alephzero You'll get the same proportion of skilled applicants, but not the same number, unless your pool of candidates is infinite and recruitment costs are negligible. You're not making a blind selection, you're choosing the best fit for a specific position. Thus, the bigger your pool, the better your average pick.

    – Ruther Rendommeleigh
    3 hours ago






  • 4





    @alephzero that assumes the rest of your industry is perfectly unbiased (in the aggregate) in their hiring. If your industry over-hires one gender, then the other gender will have a higher proportion of "smart" individuals looking for work as they have difficulty being hired by biased firms. By not being biased you leave yourself open to capitalize on the biases of others and get smarter employees.

    – lazarusL
    1 hour ago



















5














I think Glen did a great job explaining the why of diversity, so let me take a different perspective.




Do diversity and inclusion actually have any benefits over using raw meritocratic measurements in interviews?




I'd argue that in a perfect world they lead to the exact same outcome. That skills are perfectly distributed and so are opportunities.



But the world is not perfect and so opportunities are not evenly distributed and neither are skills distributed in the same way as people's talents, simply because you need experience and practice to get the most out of raw talent.



So companies know that to attract the most talented, driven crowd you need to think of peoples' background.



Steve Jobs's dad was a Syrian immigrant, the Kennedys were Irish, Barack Obama mixed race, and Sergey Brin (Google) was born in Russia.



Companies should be terrified that they could be missing out on people like that, because they might have a background that is hard to recognize.






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  • 11





    "missing out on people like that" - this is not what the question asked. The question didn't ask what the advantages are of not being biased against certain ethnic backgrounds. In a meritocracy, a minority applicant who is better than the non-minority one, gets the job. But if we discuss diversity versus meritocracy, then in that case, diversity means that the minority applicant who has the same (or lower) skill level still gets the job for the purpose of filling a quota and making the team more diverse. In this case your examples are completely off topic.

    – Val
    6 hours ago






  • 4





    My dear Val, please read my answer again but slowly. My answer is that in a perfect world (and this means a perfect assesment of people's skills too) they are one and the same, with every company being a perfect mirror of society as a whole. But they are not and so companies will have to use imperfect metrics, and ones that sometimes have to make wild guesses about ability.

    – Borgh
    6 hours ago






  • 11





    Please read the title of the question again but slowly. By claiming that metrics are imperfect, companies will miss out on really great people you provided as examples... yet none of them, as far as I know, were hired for the sake of increasing diversity (maybe with the partial exception of Obama, who surely had voters who voted on him for his race... but still, he already achieved a high status before that)

    – Val
    5 hours ago













  • If you on average must hire 1 million Syrians to get Steve Jobs you are probably better off hiring an Ivy League WASP where, say, 9 out 10 perform above the median.

    – d-b
    22 mins ago











  • "I'd argue that in a perfect world they lead to the exact same outcome. That skills are perfectly distributed and so are opportunities." Nope. All evidence indicates that disparities are normal. youtu.be/Y021WAdUlW8 People are different, both within and between different classifications. See Sowell's books on the issue for more detail.

    – jpmc26
    12 mins ago





















4














As the other answers mention, there are potentially benefits from a more diverse team that, although they could theoretically be picked up as part of a measure of merit , in practice frequently aren't.



Aside from any actual benefits to the company though, from the perspective of people monitoring hiring practices diversity is much easier to measure than merit. This makes life much easier for HR and middle management types, who can report a 20% increase in new hire diversity as a win rather more easily than they can report a 20% increase in new hire merit. Since these people tend to be involved in advising on hiring policies, diversity related policies have a tendency to emerge.






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    2














    You are assuming that when you are installing a system of true meritocracy will make any focus on diversity unnecessary, since skill does not depend on race or gender. Since skill actually does not depend on race and gender, this assumption sounds good in theory, but it does not hold up in the real world.



    You can install a system of "true meritocracy" in your company and try to inforce it with all kind of measures, but the truth is that it is impossible to build such a bubble and completely isolate it from the real world.



    In our society there are many ways how people can be disadvantaged by race, gender, wealth, social group etc. Here are some examples:




    • A woman who has kids is working on a part-time contract outperforms her coworkers on full-time contract, but her manager, whose wife stays at home with the kids, subconsciously (or consciously for that matter) feels that she can not fully focus on her job because "she also has to take care of her children" or he feels "sorry for the kids who need their mother". If she looks for a new job, she will do so from a position lower than warranted by her actual performance.

    • A black person is not graded fairly in his oral exam because he happened to come across an examiner who secretly holds racist views.

    • A smart kid from a poor family does not get good support at school, because her/his parents are busy to bring food on the table. It is expected from her/him to quickly find a paying job, because the family can not afford to maintan her/him in a higher eductation. At the same time a less gifted rich child will get all the support she/he needs by a paid tutor to attain good grades and will be supported financially by her/his parents during higher education.


    All these people are at a disvantantage in a recruitment process that does not factor in the systemic effect of race, gender and other bias that is still present in our society.



    You can even go further and say that only if you make sure that the composition of your workforce matches the one of society, you can truly install a meritocratic system. Structures tend to perpetuate themselves. A less diverse workforce will tend to remain like this, while on the other hand, a more diverse workforce will also stay more diverse.



    When your company is as diverse as society on all hierarchy levels, then it will be visible to everyone that anyone can make it to any position in the company. Only then you can truly hire people only based on their skills, because everyone, the hirer and the hiree will be aware that other non-related factors will not matter. Until then you will have to compensate for structural disadvantages of some applicants in your hiring process. The goal can not be to hire for diversity forever, but only when and as much as structural disadvantages are reflected in the company's workforce.






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    • 3





      I don't believe you understand what meritocracy means by the examples given. You are also portraying the need of providing same outcomes instead of providing the same opportunities, which goes the opposite direction of what meritocracy is.

      – fireshark519
      4 hours ago











    • @fireshark519: My whole point is that you can not provide equal opportunities in isolation. The problem is that you can not hiere based on opportunity when the system doesn't provide that. You can take a look at an individual case and say "I have hired the best one for this position based only on merit.". But when your company has a non-diverse workforce, it is a sign that you are not providing equal opportunity. The outcome is a symptom of the problem.

      – Sefe
      3 hours ago






    • 1





      again you miss what meritocracy is. I was hired at my current job as a business analyst with no degree, no shipping experience and nearly no business analyst experience. I did not have the opportunity to go to university because of the country I grew up in. Between me and the other candidate that was shortlisted, they had Finance BA background and a degree in business administration. I got the job because I had achieved the things they wanted for the job through my own merit and effort on previous roles (working in project analysis and improvement). equal opportunity

      – fireshark519
      3 hours ago








    • 3





      You're conflating opportunity with outcome in this answer. You start of by assuming OP wants to install a "true meritocracy" in their company and then go on to list factors that are orthogonal to merit in your reasoning why it wont work. As an example, someone getting more tutoring will lead on average to them being a more meritorious hire (presumably all that practise led to greater skill assuming equal talent), so what you're arguing for is equality of outcome. The company does not have the resources to change opportunities at a societal level.

      – Magisch
      3 hours ago



















    2














    Just an idea: if you have a non-diverse clientele (all customers being of the same/similar background), then diversity might not bring a lot of advantages (at least where customer satisfaction is concerned).



    However, if your customer base is more diverse (different backgrounds), then the presence of similar backgrounds in your company might foresee possible issues/questions the customer will have, which will make it easier and faster to respond to any customer demands.






    share|improve this answer


























    • You need to add an extra layer: only if you have a non-diverse clientele, who themselves also have non-diverse customers or end-users does this apply. If your non-diverse clients cater to diverse customers, you still need the extra insight.

      – Erik
      48 mins ago



















    2














    If you're talking about diversity in terms of casting a wide net, then yes. It can provide different perspectives and protect a company from falling into an echo chamber. But the diversity in perspective is what matters.



    If you have a collection of racially, ethnically, and spiritually diverse people who all went to Harvard, you're going to have an echo chamber.



    Even your question is a bit loaded.



    You're question suggests a false dichotomy in that EITHER a group is based on diversity OR it's meritocracy.



    The implication being that if you hire the best, you won't get a diverse group.



    That's the same as saying that people from some backgrounds aren't good enough to get hired by ordinary means.



    I've had an interesting life, and have been exposed to all sorts of people from all sorts of backgrounds. A friend of mine is currently rebuilding himself from being homeless, for example and I did the same myself.



    Racial and cultural backgrounds alone do not ensure the kind of diversity of perspective that is said to be sought.



    Back to my Harvard example. You will have a group that seems to be very diverse, but will essentially be an echo chamber as their backgrounds and experiences will have more in common than different.



    But, if you have a group where one person had come up from the mean streets, paid his own way to school while working nights and taking care of his sick aunt may, until he clawed his way up to the top, and another person who came from a wealthy background, and was able to make many high-level connections along the way, you'd have a diverse team, even if both were black, white Asian, Christian, Muslim, et cetera.



    Another thing you need to be careful of is in not turning your diversity outreach into a "diversity hire mill", where you are excluding people because of their backgrounds either, nor should you hire someone without merit, as that will cause numerous other problems.



    Example, You hire A and B through your diversity program. "A" is an all-star, brilliant in her work, and better than half your team coming right in the door, definitely has a future with your company. "B", is mediocre at best, has a bad attitude, knows that she's hired through the diversity program, and is using that as job security.



    Comments will come (either publicly or privately) that "That's what you get for hiring people like "b". A will certainly feel the pressure as well. Even if "A"'s performance remains remarkable, or even improves, "A" might get labeled as a "diversity hire", pushed aside, and passed over for promotion, or worse, promoted out of the way and left to stagnate.



    IF you want to eliminate bias, you can pass people resume's with no personal information on the, so that they don't know the person's background, and then screen from there, but if you go in with the attitude that the two are mutually exclusive, then you are, from the word go, accepting sopme people are just not good enough due to their race/color/creed. That's where you will ruin your company.






    share|improve this answer































      0















      why do unbiased people believe that some (non-PR) utility would be provided to their companies by hiring a more diverse staff instead of simply relying on meritocracy itself?




      Human beings, including "unbiased people" are capable of believing nearly anything for any reason. But when people form any given belief, they don't typically change it unless it is shown to be demonstrably wrong in some way that is costly to ignore.



      Belief in diversity's benefits is a relatively non-costly belief for HR personnel, and those benefits are difficult to measure objectively. If the benefits of diverse hiring practices don't actually exist, the effort in seeking additional diversity doesn't negatively impact the company much or at all.



      Consider that top companies like Google still have 80% male development teams because that's who they can find, even after spending lots of time and money to try to hire more women. It's not like if a software company can only find 3 white dudes no matter how hard it tries, it won't eventually hire one of the white dudes instead of keep the position open forever.






      share|improve this answer








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        9 Answers
        9






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        9 Answers
        9






        active

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        60














        Here's a Harvard Business Review study on why diverse teams outperform homogeneous teams.



        Diverse teams are more innovative and focus on facts better than homogeneous teams. However, it's not as simple as throwing a bunch of different people together and hoping that things work out, as this article points out.



        Now if you're interested in something beyond abstract notions of "productivity" and why diversity matters, look at this. It's a soap dispenser that doesn't dispense soap to people who aren't white because a team of white people never thought to test it on skin tones apart from theirs. Don't be that team.



        I work on an amazing and very diverse team. I'm better because of the diversity in my team (I get to engage with people of different skill levels, from different perspectives, with different priorities, etc.) When building teams, looking entirely for a stack of uniformly excellent 10X engineers will be both costly and counterproductive. We focused on building a 10X team, as described in this article, and we did. I'm extremely happy on my team.






        share|improve this answer





















        • 19





          The interesting thing about that article you link; is that it's talking about diversity in management... This is not what OP is talking about; as it is management trying to get the workforce more diverse; not getting themselves more diverse (who would want to put themselves out the job for the sake of the company?!). I suspect that having the main workforce of a car factory would make no difference what so ever - and may even harm production if the diverseness means less physically able.

          – UKMonkey
          6 hours ago






        • 13





          Where is the evidence that the soap dispenser was developed by a team of white people? It was probably developed in China.

          – James
          5 hours ago






        • 12





          I cant help but feel that this Harvard Study is implying "diversity" as in, different mindsets and social/educational backgrounds - i dont think a team with mixed ethnics has different performance than a team with non-diverse ethnics. Gender might be true, since men and women have proved to approach challenges in different ways.

          – Flying Thunder
          5 hours ago






        • 4





          @FlyingThunder how about reading the article instead of guessing? I mean, it's literally in the second sentence.

          – DonQuiKong
          4 hours ago






        • 17





          It's important to highlight that successful teams tend to be diverse, but diverse teams are not necessarily, or inherently, more successful. I say this because it's easy to put the horse before the cart in some cases. A successful team with a decent diversity score (if you want to quantify it) is a good indicator of a) an HR team that can deal with anything you can throw at it, and b) team members who can empathise with their fellow human beings. Again, you don't need diversity to do that, but it can be a marker of such things.

          – rath
          3 hours ago


















        60














        Here's a Harvard Business Review study on why diverse teams outperform homogeneous teams.



        Diverse teams are more innovative and focus on facts better than homogeneous teams. However, it's not as simple as throwing a bunch of different people together and hoping that things work out, as this article points out.



        Now if you're interested in something beyond abstract notions of "productivity" and why diversity matters, look at this. It's a soap dispenser that doesn't dispense soap to people who aren't white because a team of white people never thought to test it on skin tones apart from theirs. Don't be that team.



        I work on an amazing and very diverse team. I'm better because of the diversity in my team (I get to engage with people of different skill levels, from different perspectives, with different priorities, etc.) When building teams, looking entirely for a stack of uniformly excellent 10X engineers will be both costly and counterproductive. We focused on building a 10X team, as described in this article, and we did. I'm extremely happy on my team.






        share|improve this answer





















        • 19





          The interesting thing about that article you link; is that it's talking about diversity in management... This is not what OP is talking about; as it is management trying to get the workforce more diverse; not getting themselves more diverse (who would want to put themselves out the job for the sake of the company?!). I suspect that having the main workforce of a car factory would make no difference what so ever - and may even harm production if the diverseness means less physically able.

          – UKMonkey
          6 hours ago






        • 13





          Where is the evidence that the soap dispenser was developed by a team of white people? It was probably developed in China.

          – James
          5 hours ago






        • 12





          I cant help but feel that this Harvard Study is implying "diversity" as in, different mindsets and social/educational backgrounds - i dont think a team with mixed ethnics has different performance than a team with non-diverse ethnics. Gender might be true, since men and women have proved to approach challenges in different ways.

          – Flying Thunder
          5 hours ago






        • 4





          @FlyingThunder how about reading the article instead of guessing? I mean, it's literally in the second sentence.

          – DonQuiKong
          4 hours ago






        • 17





          It's important to highlight that successful teams tend to be diverse, but diverse teams are not necessarily, or inherently, more successful. I say this because it's easy to put the horse before the cart in some cases. A successful team with a decent diversity score (if you want to quantify it) is a good indicator of a) an HR team that can deal with anything you can throw at it, and b) team members who can empathise with their fellow human beings. Again, you don't need diversity to do that, but it can be a marker of such things.

          – rath
          3 hours ago
















        60












        60








        60







        Here's a Harvard Business Review study on why diverse teams outperform homogeneous teams.



        Diverse teams are more innovative and focus on facts better than homogeneous teams. However, it's not as simple as throwing a bunch of different people together and hoping that things work out, as this article points out.



        Now if you're interested in something beyond abstract notions of "productivity" and why diversity matters, look at this. It's a soap dispenser that doesn't dispense soap to people who aren't white because a team of white people never thought to test it on skin tones apart from theirs. Don't be that team.



        I work on an amazing and very diverse team. I'm better because of the diversity in my team (I get to engage with people of different skill levels, from different perspectives, with different priorities, etc.) When building teams, looking entirely for a stack of uniformly excellent 10X engineers will be both costly and counterproductive. We focused on building a 10X team, as described in this article, and we did. I'm extremely happy on my team.






        share|improve this answer















        Here's a Harvard Business Review study on why diverse teams outperform homogeneous teams.



        Diverse teams are more innovative and focus on facts better than homogeneous teams. However, it's not as simple as throwing a bunch of different people together and hoping that things work out, as this article points out.



        Now if you're interested in something beyond abstract notions of "productivity" and why diversity matters, look at this. It's a soap dispenser that doesn't dispense soap to people who aren't white because a team of white people never thought to test it on skin tones apart from theirs. Don't be that team.



        I work on an amazing and very diverse team. I'm better because of the diversity in my team (I get to engage with people of different skill levels, from different perspectives, with different priorities, etc.) When building teams, looking entirely for a stack of uniformly excellent 10X engineers will be both costly and counterproductive. We focused on building a 10X team, as described in this article, and we did. I'm extremely happy on my team.







        share|improve this answer














        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer








        edited 10 hours ago









        Nisarg Shah

        32928




        32928










        answered 11 hours ago









        Glen PierceGlen Pierce

        7,33041632




        7,33041632








        • 19





          The interesting thing about that article you link; is that it's talking about diversity in management... This is not what OP is talking about; as it is management trying to get the workforce more diverse; not getting themselves more diverse (who would want to put themselves out the job for the sake of the company?!). I suspect that having the main workforce of a car factory would make no difference what so ever - and may even harm production if the diverseness means less physically able.

          – UKMonkey
          6 hours ago






        • 13





          Where is the evidence that the soap dispenser was developed by a team of white people? It was probably developed in China.

          – James
          5 hours ago






        • 12





          I cant help but feel that this Harvard Study is implying "diversity" as in, different mindsets and social/educational backgrounds - i dont think a team with mixed ethnics has different performance than a team with non-diverse ethnics. Gender might be true, since men and women have proved to approach challenges in different ways.

          – Flying Thunder
          5 hours ago






        • 4





          @FlyingThunder how about reading the article instead of guessing? I mean, it's literally in the second sentence.

          – DonQuiKong
          4 hours ago






        • 17





          It's important to highlight that successful teams tend to be diverse, but diverse teams are not necessarily, or inherently, more successful. I say this because it's easy to put the horse before the cart in some cases. A successful team with a decent diversity score (if you want to quantify it) is a good indicator of a) an HR team that can deal with anything you can throw at it, and b) team members who can empathise with their fellow human beings. Again, you don't need diversity to do that, but it can be a marker of such things.

          – rath
          3 hours ago
















        • 19





          The interesting thing about that article you link; is that it's talking about diversity in management... This is not what OP is talking about; as it is management trying to get the workforce more diverse; not getting themselves more diverse (who would want to put themselves out the job for the sake of the company?!). I suspect that having the main workforce of a car factory would make no difference what so ever - and may even harm production if the diverseness means less physically able.

          – UKMonkey
          6 hours ago






        • 13





          Where is the evidence that the soap dispenser was developed by a team of white people? It was probably developed in China.

          – James
          5 hours ago






        • 12





          I cant help but feel that this Harvard Study is implying "diversity" as in, different mindsets and social/educational backgrounds - i dont think a team with mixed ethnics has different performance than a team with non-diverse ethnics. Gender might be true, since men and women have proved to approach challenges in different ways.

          – Flying Thunder
          5 hours ago






        • 4





          @FlyingThunder how about reading the article instead of guessing? I mean, it's literally in the second sentence.

          – DonQuiKong
          4 hours ago






        • 17





          It's important to highlight that successful teams tend to be diverse, but diverse teams are not necessarily, or inherently, more successful. I say this because it's easy to put the horse before the cart in some cases. A successful team with a decent diversity score (if you want to quantify it) is a good indicator of a) an HR team that can deal with anything you can throw at it, and b) team members who can empathise with their fellow human beings. Again, you don't need diversity to do that, but it can be a marker of such things.

          – rath
          3 hours ago










        19




        19





        The interesting thing about that article you link; is that it's talking about diversity in management... This is not what OP is talking about; as it is management trying to get the workforce more diverse; not getting themselves more diverse (who would want to put themselves out the job for the sake of the company?!). I suspect that having the main workforce of a car factory would make no difference what so ever - and may even harm production if the diverseness means less physically able.

        – UKMonkey
        6 hours ago





        The interesting thing about that article you link; is that it's talking about diversity in management... This is not what OP is talking about; as it is management trying to get the workforce more diverse; not getting themselves more diverse (who would want to put themselves out the job for the sake of the company?!). I suspect that having the main workforce of a car factory would make no difference what so ever - and may even harm production if the diverseness means less physically able.

        – UKMonkey
        6 hours ago




        13




        13





        Where is the evidence that the soap dispenser was developed by a team of white people? It was probably developed in China.

        – James
        5 hours ago





        Where is the evidence that the soap dispenser was developed by a team of white people? It was probably developed in China.

        – James
        5 hours ago




        12




        12





        I cant help but feel that this Harvard Study is implying "diversity" as in, different mindsets and social/educational backgrounds - i dont think a team with mixed ethnics has different performance than a team with non-diverse ethnics. Gender might be true, since men and women have proved to approach challenges in different ways.

        – Flying Thunder
        5 hours ago





        I cant help but feel that this Harvard Study is implying "diversity" as in, different mindsets and social/educational backgrounds - i dont think a team with mixed ethnics has different performance than a team with non-diverse ethnics. Gender might be true, since men and women have proved to approach challenges in different ways.

        – Flying Thunder
        5 hours ago




        4




        4





        @FlyingThunder how about reading the article instead of guessing? I mean, it's literally in the second sentence.

        – DonQuiKong
        4 hours ago





        @FlyingThunder how about reading the article instead of guessing? I mean, it's literally in the second sentence.

        – DonQuiKong
        4 hours ago




        17




        17





        It's important to highlight that successful teams tend to be diverse, but diverse teams are not necessarily, or inherently, more successful. I say this because it's easy to put the horse before the cart in some cases. A successful team with a decent diversity score (if you want to quantify it) is a good indicator of a) an HR team that can deal with anything you can throw at it, and b) team members who can empathise with their fellow human beings. Again, you don't need diversity to do that, but it can be a marker of such things.

        – rath
        3 hours ago







        It's important to highlight that successful teams tend to be diverse, but diverse teams are not necessarily, or inherently, more successful. I say this because it's easy to put the horse before the cart in some cases. A successful team with a decent diversity score (if you want to quantify it) is a good indicator of a) an HR team that can deal with anything you can throw at it, and b) team members who can empathise with their fellow human beings. Again, you don't need diversity to do that, but it can be a marker of such things.

        – rath
        3 hours ago















        39














        The general problem here is that the "merit" in meritocracy needs to be measured in some quantitative way. It's not an objective or absolute quantity. Organizations or teams that have a blind spot are often not aware that they have a blind spot and hence they won't be able to fill it.



        Diversity helps you to broaden your definition of merit and create more balanced value system






        share|improve this answer
























        • I like this answer best as it explicitly points out that meritocracy and diversity aren't mutually exclusive. It just broadens the scope to recognize that a team composed of people different from backgrounds has its own merits.

          – Nuclear Wang
          2 hours ago






        • 4





          yeah, the question assumes these decisions will be made by "unbiased people". these people do not exist

          – aw04
          2 hours ago













        • You need to explain what you mean. Please tell me how diversity helps you "define" merit. Please explain why my value system will be more "balanced" and what a "balanced" value system even is and why its desirable.

          – a1s2d3f4
          59 mins ago
















        39














        The general problem here is that the "merit" in meritocracy needs to be measured in some quantitative way. It's not an objective or absolute quantity. Organizations or teams that have a blind spot are often not aware that they have a blind spot and hence they won't be able to fill it.



        Diversity helps you to broaden your definition of merit and create more balanced value system






        share|improve this answer
























        • I like this answer best as it explicitly points out that meritocracy and diversity aren't mutually exclusive. It just broadens the scope to recognize that a team composed of people different from backgrounds has its own merits.

          – Nuclear Wang
          2 hours ago






        • 4





          yeah, the question assumes these decisions will be made by "unbiased people". these people do not exist

          – aw04
          2 hours ago













        • You need to explain what you mean. Please tell me how diversity helps you "define" merit. Please explain why my value system will be more "balanced" and what a "balanced" value system even is and why its desirable.

          – a1s2d3f4
          59 mins ago














        39












        39








        39







        The general problem here is that the "merit" in meritocracy needs to be measured in some quantitative way. It's not an objective or absolute quantity. Organizations or teams that have a blind spot are often not aware that they have a blind spot and hence they won't be able to fill it.



        Diversity helps you to broaden your definition of merit and create more balanced value system






        share|improve this answer













        The general problem here is that the "merit" in meritocracy needs to be measured in some quantitative way. It's not an objective or absolute quantity. Organizations or teams that have a blind spot are often not aware that they have a blind spot and hence they won't be able to fill it.



        Diversity helps you to broaden your definition of merit and create more balanced value system







        share|improve this answer












        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer










        answered 6 hours ago









        HilmarHilmar

        28.9k76786




        28.9k76786













        • I like this answer best as it explicitly points out that meritocracy and diversity aren't mutually exclusive. It just broadens the scope to recognize that a team composed of people different from backgrounds has its own merits.

          – Nuclear Wang
          2 hours ago






        • 4





          yeah, the question assumes these decisions will be made by "unbiased people". these people do not exist

          – aw04
          2 hours ago













        • You need to explain what you mean. Please tell me how diversity helps you "define" merit. Please explain why my value system will be more "balanced" and what a "balanced" value system even is and why its desirable.

          – a1s2d3f4
          59 mins ago



















        • I like this answer best as it explicitly points out that meritocracy and diversity aren't mutually exclusive. It just broadens the scope to recognize that a team composed of people different from backgrounds has its own merits.

          – Nuclear Wang
          2 hours ago






        • 4





          yeah, the question assumes these decisions will be made by "unbiased people". these people do not exist

          – aw04
          2 hours ago













        • You need to explain what you mean. Please tell me how diversity helps you "define" merit. Please explain why my value system will be more "balanced" and what a "balanced" value system even is and why its desirable.

          – a1s2d3f4
          59 mins ago

















        I like this answer best as it explicitly points out that meritocracy and diversity aren't mutually exclusive. It just broadens the scope to recognize that a team composed of people different from backgrounds has its own merits.

        – Nuclear Wang
        2 hours ago





        I like this answer best as it explicitly points out that meritocracy and diversity aren't mutually exclusive. It just broadens the scope to recognize that a team composed of people different from backgrounds has its own merits.

        – Nuclear Wang
        2 hours ago




        4




        4





        yeah, the question assumes these decisions will be made by "unbiased people". these people do not exist

        – aw04
        2 hours ago







        yeah, the question assumes these decisions will be made by "unbiased people". these people do not exist

        – aw04
        2 hours ago















        You need to explain what you mean. Please tell me how diversity helps you "define" merit. Please explain why my value system will be more "balanced" and what a "balanced" value system even is and why its desirable.

        – a1s2d3f4
        59 mins ago





        You need to explain what you mean. Please tell me how diversity helps you "define" merit. Please explain why my value system will be more "balanced" and what a "balanced" value system even is and why its desirable.

        – a1s2d3f4
        59 mins ago











        34














        I work in a big IT company (100.000+ employee) and I am a racial minority. Here is what I was told from an HR representative when I was promoted as a manager:




        We need to hire smart and talented people. Smart and talented people can come from any background, including diverse gender, diverse sexualities, diverse skin color, diverse level of disability, etc...



        If a division of the company turns out to be seen a toxic by a given demographic, we lose the ability to hire from this demographic.



        For example, if you let lewd jokes, harassment, belittlement create a toxic environment for women, we lose 50% of our hiring prospect, which will result in having less choice from where to select talented people. As a result, you will have to work with dummies.



        So, be open to diversity and work with smart people, or else you will have to work with dummies.




        What I find funny is that I had to be promoted manager to hear this sensible argument. As long as I was a junior, all HR gave me as a justification was the usual BS ("diversity is cool, mmh 'kay? Don't be bad"). Being a minority, I value diversity, but like you I was doubtful, as if a company whose primary objective is to make money would care...






        share|improve this answer










        New contributor




        armand is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
        Check out our Code of Conduct.
















        • 3





          You had to wait until you were promoted manager to hear this, because the pseudo-statistical argument is nonsense, and only managers can get away with believing nonsense without screwing up the quality of your company's products. Suppose that males and females are equally diverse, and the proportion of "smart" males and females is identical. Now, if your company is recruiting, you will get the same proportion of "smart" applicants from 100% male applicants, 100% female applicants, or anything in between. Oops, HR's argument just flew out of the window.

          – alephzero
          4 hours ago








        • 1





          I am unclear as to whether you are answering this question or not. The text you provide from HR seems to answer that "yes there are benefits on diversity at the workplace" but you don't seem to agree with that.

          – fireshark519
          4 hours ago






        • 17





          @alephzero you might get the same proportion of male applicants, but you don't get the same overall number as half your potential applicants haven't applied

          – tddmonkey
          4 hours ago






        • 6





          @alephzero You'll get the same proportion of skilled applicants, but not the same number, unless your pool of candidates is infinite and recruitment costs are negligible. You're not making a blind selection, you're choosing the best fit for a specific position. Thus, the bigger your pool, the better your average pick.

          – Ruther Rendommeleigh
          3 hours ago






        • 4





          @alephzero that assumes the rest of your industry is perfectly unbiased (in the aggregate) in their hiring. If your industry over-hires one gender, then the other gender will have a higher proportion of "smart" individuals looking for work as they have difficulty being hired by biased firms. By not being biased you leave yourself open to capitalize on the biases of others and get smarter employees.

          – lazarusL
          1 hour ago
















        34














        I work in a big IT company (100.000+ employee) and I am a racial minority. Here is what I was told from an HR representative when I was promoted as a manager:




        We need to hire smart and talented people. Smart and talented people can come from any background, including diverse gender, diverse sexualities, diverse skin color, diverse level of disability, etc...



        If a division of the company turns out to be seen a toxic by a given demographic, we lose the ability to hire from this demographic.



        For example, if you let lewd jokes, harassment, belittlement create a toxic environment for women, we lose 50% of our hiring prospect, which will result in having less choice from where to select talented people. As a result, you will have to work with dummies.



        So, be open to diversity and work with smart people, or else you will have to work with dummies.




        What I find funny is that I had to be promoted manager to hear this sensible argument. As long as I was a junior, all HR gave me as a justification was the usual BS ("diversity is cool, mmh 'kay? Don't be bad"). Being a minority, I value diversity, but like you I was doubtful, as if a company whose primary objective is to make money would care...






        share|improve this answer










        New contributor




        armand is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
        Check out our Code of Conduct.
















        • 3





          You had to wait until you were promoted manager to hear this, because the pseudo-statistical argument is nonsense, and only managers can get away with believing nonsense without screwing up the quality of your company's products. Suppose that males and females are equally diverse, and the proportion of "smart" males and females is identical. Now, if your company is recruiting, you will get the same proportion of "smart" applicants from 100% male applicants, 100% female applicants, or anything in between. Oops, HR's argument just flew out of the window.

          – alephzero
          4 hours ago








        • 1





          I am unclear as to whether you are answering this question or not. The text you provide from HR seems to answer that "yes there are benefits on diversity at the workplace" but you don't seem to agree with that.

          – fireshark519
          4 hours ago






        • 17





          @alephzero you might get the same proportion of male applicants, but you don't get the same overall number as half your potential applicants haven't applied

          – tddmonkey
          4 hours ago






        • 6





          @alephzero You'll get the same proportion of skilled applicants, but not the same number, unless your pool of candidates is infinite and recruitment costs are negligible. You're not making a blind selection, you're choosing the best fit for a specific position. Thus, the bigger your pool, the better your average pick.

          – Ruther Rendommeleigh
          3 hours ago






        • 4





          @alephzero that assumes the rest of your industry is perfectly unbiased (in the aggregate) in their hiring. If your industry over-hires one gender, then the other gender will have a higher proportion of "smart" individuals looking for work as they have difficulty being hired by biased firms. By not being biased you leave yourself open to capitalize on the biases of others and get smarter employees.

          – lazarusL
          1 hour ago














        34












        34








        34







        I work in a big IT company (100.000+ employee) and I am a racial minority. Here is what I was told from an HR representative when I was promoted as a manager:




        We need to hire smart and talented people. Smart and talented people can come from any background, including diverse gender, diverse sexualities, diverse skin color, diverse level of disability, etc...



        If a division of the company turns out to be seen a toxic by a given demographic, we lose the ability to hire from this demographic.



        For example, if you let lewd jokes, harassment, belittlement create a toxic environment for women, we lose 50% of our hiring prospect, which will result in having less choice from where to select talented people. As a result, you will have to work with dummies.



        So, be open to diversity and work with smart people, or else you will have to work with dummies.




        What I find funny is that I had to be promoted manager to hear this sensible argument. As long as I was a junior, all HR gave me as a justification was the usual BS ("diversity is cool, mmh 'kay? Don't be bad"). Being a minority, I value diversity, but like you I was doubtful, as if a company whose primary objective is to make money would care...






        share|improve this answer










        New contributor




        armand is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
        Check out our Code of Conduct.










        I work in a big IT company (100.000+ employee) and I am a racial minority. Here is what I was told from an HR representative when I was promoted as a manager:




        We need to hire smart and talented people. Smart and talented people can come from any background, including diverse gender, diverse sexualities, diverse skin color, diverse level of disability, etc...



        If a division of the company turns out to be seen a toxic by a given demographic, we lose the ability to hire from this demographic.



        For example, if you let lewd jokes, harassment, belittlement create a toxic environment for women, we lose 50% of our hiring prospect, which will result in having less choice from where to select talented people. As a result, you will have to work with dummies.



        So, be open to diversity and work with smart people, or else you will have to work with dummies.




        What I find funny is that I had to be promoted manager to hear this sensible argument. As long as I was a junior, all HR gave me as a justification was the usual BS ("diversity is cool, mmh 'kay? Don't be bad"). Being a minority, I value diversity, but like you I was doubtful, as if a company whose primary objective is to make money would care...







        share|improve this answer










        New contributor




        armand is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
        Check out our Code of Conduct.









        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer








        edited 1 hour ago









        Konrad Rudolph

        297313




        297313






        New contributor




        armand is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
        Check out our Code of Conduct.









        answered 5 hours ago









        armandarmand

        30113




        30113




        New contributor




        armand is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
        Check out our Code of Conduct.





        New contributor





        armand is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
        Check out our Code of Conduct.






        armand is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
        Check out our Code of Conduct.








        • 3





          You had to wait until you were promoted manager to hear this, because the pseudo-statistical argument is nonsense, and only managers can get away with believing nonsense without screwing up the quality of your company's products. Suppose that males and females are equally diverse, and the proportion of "smart" males and females is identical. Now, if your company is recruiting, you will get the same proportion of "smart" applicants from 100% male applicants, 100% female applicants, or anything in between. Oops, HR's argument just flew out of the window.

          – alephzero
          4 hours ago








        • 1





          I am unclear as to whether you are answering this question or not. The text you provide from HR seems to answer that "yes there are benefits on diversity at the workplace" but you don't seem to agree with that.

          – fireshark519
          4 hours ago






        • 17





          @alephzero you might get the same proportion of male applicants, but you don't get the same overall number as half your potential applicants haven't applied

          – tddmonkey
          4 hours ago






        • 6





          @alephzero You'll get the same proportion of skilled applicants, but not the same number, unless your pool of candidates is infinite and recruitment costs are negligible. You're not making a blind selection, you're choosing the best fit for a specific position. Thus, the bigger your pool, the better your average pick.

          – Ruther Rendommeleigh
          3 hours ago






        • 4





          @alephzero that assumes the rest of your industry is perfectly unbiased (in the aggregate) in their hiring. If your industry over-hires one gender, then the other gender will have a higher proportion of "smart" individuals looking for work as they have difficulty being hired by biased firms. By not being biased you leave yourself open to capitalize on the biases of others and get smarter employees.

          – lazarusL
          1 hour ago














        • 3





          You had to wait until you were promoted manager to hear this, because the pseudo-statistical argument is nonsense, and only managers can get away with believing nonsense without screwing up the quality of your company's products. Suppose that males and females are equally diverse, and the proportion of "smart" males and females is identical. Now, if your company is recruiting, you will get the same proportion of "smart" applicants from 100% male applicants, 100% female applicants, or anything in between. Oops, HR's argument just flew out of the window.

          – alephzero
          4 hours ago








        • 1





          I am unclear as to whether you are answering this question or not. The text you provide from HR seems to answer that "yes there are benefits on diversity at the workplace" but you don't seem to agree with that.

          – fireshark519
          4 hours ago






        • 17





          @alephzero you might get the same proportion of male applicants, but you don't get the same overall number as half your potential applicants haven't applied

          – tddmonkey
          4 hours ago






        • 6





          @alephzero You'll get the same proportion of skilled applicants, but not the same number, unless your pool of candidates is infinite and recruitment costs are negligible. You're not making a blind selection, you're choosing the best fit for a specific position. Thus, the bigger your pool, the better your average pick.

          – Ruther Rendommeleigh
          3 hours ago






        • 4





          @alephzero that assumes the rest of your industry is perfectly unbiased (in the aggregate) in their hiring. If your industry over-hires one gender, then the other gender will have a higher proportion of "smart" individuals looking for work as they have difficulty being hired by biased firms. By not being biased you leave yourself open to capitalize on the biases of others and get smarter employees.

          – lazarusL
          1 hour ago








        3




        3





        You had to wait until you were promoted manager to hear this, because the pseudo-statistical argument is nonsense, and only managers can get away with believing nonsense without screwing up the quality of your company's products. Suppose that males and females are equally diverse, and the proportion of "smart" males and females is identical. Now, if your company is recruiting, you will get the same proportion of "smart" applicants from 100% male applicants, 100% female applicants, or anything in between. Oops, HR's argument just flew out of the window.

        – alephzero
        4 hours ago







        You had to wait until you were promoted manager to hear this, because the pseudo-statistical argument is nonsense, and only managers can get away with believing nonsense without screwing up the quality of your company's products. Suppose that males and females are equally diverse, and the proportion of "smart" males and females is identical. Now, if your company is recruiting, you will get the same proportion of "smart" applicants from 100% male applicants, 100% female applicants, or anything in between. Oops, HR's argument just flew out of the window.

        – alephzero
        4 hours ago






        1




        1





        I am unclear as to whether you are answering this question or not. The text you provide from HR seems to answer that "yes there are benefits on diversity at the workplace" but you don't seem to agree with that.

        – fireshark519
        4 hours ago





        I am unclear as to whether you are answering this question or not. The text you provide from HR seems to answer that "yes there are benefits on diversity at the workplace" but you don't seem to agree with that.

        – fireshark519
        4 hours ago




        17




        17





        @alephzero you might get the same proportion of male applicants, but you don't get the same overall number as half your potential applicants haven't applied

        – tddmonkey
        4 hours ago





        @alephzero you might get the same proportion of male applicants, but you don't get the same overall number as half your potential applicants haven't applied

        – tddmonkey
        4 hours ago




        6




        6





        @alephzero You'll get the same proportion of skilled applicants, but not the same number, unless your pool of candidates is infinite and recruitment costs are negligible. You're not making a blind selection, you're choosing the best fit for a specific position. Thus, the bigger your pool, the better your average pick.

        – Ruther Rendommeleigh
        3 hours ago





        @alephzero You'll get the same proportion of skilled applicants, but not the same number, unless your pool of candidates is infinite and recruitment costs are negligible. You're not making a blind selection, you're choosing the best fit for a specific position. Thus, the bigger your pool, the better your average pick.

        – Ruther Rendommeleigh
        3 hours ago




        4




        4





        @alephzero that assumes the rest of your industry is perfectly unbiased (in the aggregate) in their hiring. If your industry over-hires one gender, then the other gender will have a higher proportion of "smart" individuals looking for work as they have difficulty being hired by biased firms. By not being biased you leave yourself open to capitalize on the biases of others and get smarter employees.

        – lazarusL
        1 hour ago





        @alephzero that assumes the rest of your industry is perfectly unbiased (in the aggregate) in their hiring. If your industry over-hires one gender, then the other gender will have a higher proportion of "smart" individuals looking for work as they have difficulty being hired by biased firms. By not being biased you leave yourself open to capitalize on the biases of others and get smarter employees.

        – lazarusL
        1 hour ago











        5














        I think Glen did a great job explaining the why of diversity, so let me take a different perspective.




        Do diversity and inclusion actually have any benefits over using raw meritocratic measurements in interviews?




        I'd argue that in a perfect world they lead to the exact same outcome. That skills are perfectly distributed and so are opportunities.



        But the world is not perfect and so opportunities are not evenly distributed and neither are skills distributed in the same way as people's talents, simply because you need experience and practice to get the most out of raw talent.



        So companies know that to attract the most talented, driven crowd you need to think of peoples' background.



        Steve Jobs's dad was a Syrian immigrant, the Kennedys were Irish, Barack Obama mixed race, and Sergey Brin (Google) was born in Russia.



        Companies should be terrified that they could be missing out on people like that, because they might have a background that is hard to recognize.






        share|improve this answer





















        • 11





          "missing out on people like that" - this is not what the question asked. The question didn't ask what the advantages are of not being biased against certain ethnic backgrounds. In a meritocracy, a minority applicant who is better than the non-minority one, gets the job. But if we discuss diversity versus meritocracy, then in that case, diversity means that the minority applicant who has the same (or lower) skill level still gets the job for the purpose of filling a quota and making the team more diverse. In this case your examples are completely off topic.

          – Val
          6 hours ago






        • 4





          My dear Val, please read my answer again but slowly. My answer is that in a perfect world (and this means a perfect assesment of people's skills too) they are one and the same, with every company being a perfect mirror of society as a whole. But they are not and so companies will have to use imperfect metrics, and ones that sometimes have to make wild guesses about ability.

          – Borgh
          6 hours ago






        • 11





          Please read the title of the question again but slowly. By claiming that metrics are imperfect, companies will miss out on really great people you provided as examples... yet none of them, as far as I know, were hired for the sake of increasing diversity (maybe with the partial exception of Obama, who surely had voters who voted on him for his race... but still, he already achieved a high status before that)

          – Val
          5 hours ago













        • If you on average must hire 1 million Syrians to get Steve Jobs you are probably better off hiring an Ivy League WASP where, say, 9 out 10 perform above the median.

          – d-b
          22 mins ago











        • "I'd argue that in a perfect world they lead to the exact same outcome. That skills are perfectly distributed and so are opportunities." Nope. All evidence indicates that disparities are normal. youtu.be/Y021WAdUlW8 People are different, both within and between different classifications. See Sowell's books on the issue for more detail.

          – jpmc26
          12 mins ago


















        5














        I think Glen did a great job explaining the why of diversity, so let me take a different perspective.




        Do diversity and inclusion actually have any benefits over using raw meritocratic measurements in interviews?




        I'd argue that in a perfect world they lead to the exact same outcome. That skills are perfectly distributed and so are opportunities.



        But the world is not perfect and so opportunities are not evenly distributed and neither are skills distributed in the same way as people's talents, simply because you need experience and practice to get the most out of raw talent.



        So companies know that to attract the most talented, driven crowd you need to think of peoples' background.



        Steve Jobs's dad was a Syrian immigrant, the Kennedys were Irish, Barack Obama mixed race, and Sergey Brin (Google) was born in Russia.



        Companies should be terrified that they could be missing out on people like that, because they might have a background that is hard to recognize.






        share|improve this answer





















        • 11





          "missing out on people like that" - this is not what the question asked. The question didn't ask what the advantages are of not being biased against certain ethnic backgrounds. In a meritocracy, a minority applicant who is better than the non-minority one, gets the job. But if we discuss diversity versus meritocracy, then in that case, diversity means that the minority applicant who has the same (or lower) skill level still gets the job for the purpose of filling a quota and making the team more diverse. In this case your examples are completely off topic.

          – Val
          6 hours ago






        • 4





          My dear Val, please read my answer again but slowly. My answer is that in a perfect world (and this means a perfect assesment of people's skills too) they are one and the same, with every company being a perfect mirror of society as a whole. But they are not and so companies will have to use imperfect metrics, and ones that sometimes have to make wild guesses about ability.

          – Borgh
          6 hours ago






        • 11





          Please read the title of the question again but slowly. By claiming that metrics are imperfect, companies will miss out on really great people you provided as examples... yet none of them, as far as I know, were hired for the sake of increasing diversity (maybe with the partial exception of Obama, who surely had voters who voted on him for his race... but still, he already achieved a high status before that)

          – Val
          5 hours ago













        • If you on average must hire 1 million Syrians to get Steve Jobs you are probably better off hiring an Ivy League WASP where, say, 9 out 10 perform above the median.

          – d-b
          22 mins ago











        • "I'd argue that in a perfect world they lead to the exact same outcome. That skills are perfectly distributed and so are opportunities." Nope. All evidence indicates that disparities are normal. youtu.be/Y021WAdUlW8 People are different, both within and between different classifications. See Sowell's books on the issue for more detail.

          – jpmc26
          12 mins ago
















        5












        5








        5







        I think Glen did a great job explaining the why of diversity, so let me take a different perspective.




        Do diversity and inclusion actually have any benefits over using raw meritocratic measurements in interviews?




        I'd argue that in a perfect world they lead to the exact same outcome. That skills are perfectly distributed and so are opportunities.



        But the world is not perfect and so opportunities are not evenly distributed and neither are skills distributed in the same way as people's talents, simply because you need experience and practice to get the most out of raw talent.



        So companies know that to attract the most talented, driven crowd you need to think of peoples' background.



        Steve Jobs's dad was a Syrian immigrant, the Kennedys were Irish, Barack Obama mixed race, and Sergey Brin (Google) was born in Russia.



        Companies should be terrified that they could be missing out on people like that, because they might have a background that is hard to recognize.






        share|improve this answer















        I think Glen did a great job explaining the why of diversity, so let me take a different perspective.




        Do diversity and inclusion actually have any benefits over using raw meritocratic measurements in interviews?




        I'd argue that in a perfect world they lead to the exact same outcome. That skills are perfectly distributed and so are opportunities.



        But the world is not perfect and so opportunities are not evenly distributed and neither are skills distributed in the same way as people's talents, simply because you need experience and practice to get the most out of raw talent.



        So companies know that to attract the most talented, driven crowd you need to think of peoples' background.



        Steve Jobs's dad was a Syrian immigrant, the Kennedys were Irish, Barack Obama mixed race, and Sergey Brin (Google) was born in Russia.



        Companies should be terrified that they could be missing out on people like that, because they might have a background that is hard to recognize.







        share|improve this answer














        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer








        edited 6 hours ago









        Peter Mortensen

        55547




        55547










        answered 8 hours ago









        BorghBorgh

        5,49831122




        5,49831122








        • 11





          "missing out on people like that" - this is not what the question asked. The question didn't ask what the advantages are of not being biased against certain ethnic backgrounds. In a meritocracy, a minority applicant who is better than the non-minority one, gets the job. But if we discuss diversity versus meritocracy, then in that case, diversity means that the minority applicant who has the same (or lower) skill level still gets the job for the purpose of filling a quota and making the team more diverse. In this case your examples are completely off topic.

          – Val
          6 hours ago






        • 4





          My dear Val, please read my answer again but slowly. My answer is that in a perfect world (and this means a perfect assesment of people's skills too) they are one and the same, with every company being a perfect mirror of society as a whole. But they are not and so companies will have to use imperfect metrics, and ones that sometimes have to make wild guesses about ability.

          – Borgh
          6 hours ago






        • 11





          Please read the title of the question again but slowly. By claiming that metrics are imperfect, companies will miss out on really great people you provided as examples... yet none of them, as far as I know, were hired for the sake of increasing diversity (maybe with the partial exception of Obama, who surely had voters who voted on him for his race... but still, he already achieved a high status before that)

          – Val
          5 hours ago













        • If you on average must hire 1 million Syrians to get Steve Jobs you are probably better off hiring an Ivy League WASP where, say, 9 out 10 perform above the median.

          – d-b
          22 mins ago











        • "I'd argue that in a perfect world they lead to the exact same outcome. That skills are perfectly distributed and so are opportunities." Nope. All evidence indicates that disparities are normal. youtu.be/Y021WAdUlW8 People are different, both within and between different classifications. See Sowell's books on the issue for more detail.

          – jpmc26
          12 mins ago
















        • 11





          "missing out on people like that" - this is not what the question asked. The question didn't ask what the advantages are of not being biased against certain ethnic backgrounds. In a meritocracy, a minority applicant who is better than the non-minority one, gets the job. But if we discuss diversity versus meritocracy, then in that case, diversity means that the minority applicant who has the same (or lower) skill level still gets the job for the purpose of filling a quota and making the team more diverse. In this case your examples are completely off topic.

          – Val
          6 hours ago






        • 4





          My dear Val, please read my answer again but slowly. My answer is that in a perfect world (and this means a perfect assesment of people's skills too) they are one and the same, with every company being a perfect mirror of society as a whole. But they are not and so companies will have to use imperfect metrics, and ones that sometimes have to make wild guesses about ability.

          – Borgh
          6 hours ago






        • 11





          Please read the title of the question again but slowly. By claiming that metrics are imperfect, companies will miss out on really great people you provided as examples... yet none of them, as far as I know, were hired for the sake of increasing diversity (maybe with the partial exception of Obama, who surely had voters who voted on him for his race... but still, he already achieved a high status before that)

          – Val
          5 hours ago













        • If you on average must hire 1 million Syrians to get Steve Jobs you are probably better off hiring an Ivy League WASP where, say, 9 out 10 perform above the median.

          – d-b
          22 mins ago











        • "I'd argue that in a perfect world they lead to the exact same outcome. That skills are perfectly distributed and so are opportunities." Nope. All evidence indicates that disparities are normal. youtu.be/Y021WAdUlW8 People are different, both within and between different classifications. See Sowell's books on the issue for more detail.

          – jpmc26
          12 mins ago










        11




        11





        "missing out on people like that" - this is not what the question asked. The question didn't ask what the advantages are of not being biased against certain ethnic backgrounds. In a meritocracy, a minority applicant who is better than the non-minority one, gets the job. But if we discuss diversity versus meritocracy, then in that case, diversity means that the minority applicant who has the same (or lower) skill level still gets the job for the purpose of filling a quota and making the team more diverse. In this case your examples are completely off topic.

        – Val
        6 hours ago





        "missing out on people like that" - this is not what the question asked. The question didn't ask what the advantages are of not being biased against certain ethnic backgrounds. In a meritocracy, a minority applicant who is better than the non-minority one, gets the job. But if we discuss diversity versus meritocracy, then in that case, diversity means that the minority applicant who has the same (or lower) skill level still gets the job for the purpose of filling a quota and making the team more diverse. In this case your examples are completely off topic.

        – Val
        6 hours ago




        4




        4





        My dear Val, please read my answer again but slowly. My answer is that in a perfect world (and this means a perfect assesment of people's skills too) they are one and the same, with every company being a perfect mirror of society as a whole. But they are not and so companies will have to use imperfect metrics, and ones that sometimes have to make wild guesses about ability.

        – Borgh
        6 hours ago





        My dear Val, please read my answer again but slowly. My answer is that in a perfect world (and this means a perfect assesment of people's skills too) they are one and the same, with every company being a perfect mirror of society as a whole. But they are not and so companies will have to use imperfect metrics, and ones that sometimes have to make wild guesses about ability.

        – Borgh
        6 hours ago




        11




        11





        Please read the title of the question again but slowly. By claiming that metrics are imperfect, companies will miss out on really great people you provided as examples... yet none of them, as far as I know, were hired for the sake of increasing diversity (maybe with the partial exception of Obama, who surely had voters who voted on him for his race... but still, he already achieved a high status before that)

        – Val
        5 hours ago







        Please read the title of the question again but slowly. By claiming that metrics are imperfect, companies will miss out on really great people you provided as examples... yet none of them, as far as I know, were hired for the sake of increasing diversity (maybe with the partial exception of Obama, who surely had voters who voted on him for his race... but still, he already achieved a high status before that)

        – Val
        5 hours ago















        If you on average must hire 1 million Syrians to get Steve Jobs you are probably better off hiring an Ivy League WASP where, say, 9 out 10 perform above the median.

        – d-b
        22 mins ago





        If you on average must hire 1 million Syrians to get Steve Jobs you are probably better off hiring an Ivy League WASP where, say, 9 out 10 perform above the median.

        – d-b
        22 mins ago













        "I'd argue that in a perfect world they lead to the exact same outcome. That skills are perfectly distributed and so are opportunities." Nope. All evidence indicates that disparities are normal. youtu.be/Y021WAdUlW8 People are different, both within and between different classifications. See Sowell's books on the issue for more detail.

        – jpmc26
        12 mins ago







        "I'd argue that in a perfect world they lead to the exact same outcome. That skills are perfectly distributed and so are opportunities." Nope. All evidence indicates that disparities are normal. youtu.be/Y021WAdUlW8 People are different, both within and between different classifications. See Sowell's books on the issue for more detail.

        – jpmc26
        12 mins ago













        4














        As the other answers mention, there are potentially benefits from a more diverse team that, although they could theoretically be picked up as part of a measure of merit , in practice frequently aren't.



        Aside from any actual benefits to the company though, from the perspective of people monitoring hiring practices diversity is much easier to measure than merit. This makes life much easier for HR and middle management types, who can report a 20% increase in new hire diversity as a win rather more easily than they can report a 20% increase in new hire merit. Since these people tend to be involved in advising on hiring policies, diversity related policies have a tendency to emerge.






        share|improve this answer








        New contributor




        TBP is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
        Check out our Code of Conduct.

























          4














          As the other answers mention, there are potentially benefits from a more diverse team that, although they could theoretically be picked up as part of a measure of merit , in practice frequently aren't.



          Aside from any actual benefits to the company though, from the perspective of people monitoring hiring practices diversity is much easier to measure than merit. This makes life much easier for HR and middle management types, who can report a 20% increase in new hire diversity as a win rather more easily than they can report a 20% increase in new hire merit. Since these people tend to be involved in advising on hiring policies, diversity related policies have a tendency to emerge.






          share|improve this answer








          New contributor




          TBP is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
          Check out our Code of Conduct.























            4












            4








            4







            As the other answers mention, there are potentially benefits from a more diverse team that, although they could theoretically be picked up as part of a measure of merit , in practice frequently aren't.



            Aside from any actual benefits to the company though, from the perspective of people monitoring hiring practices diversity is much easier to measure than merit. This makes life much easier for HR and middle management types, who can report a 20% increase in new hire diversity as a win rather more easily than they can report a 20% increase in new hire merit. Since these people tend to be involved in advising on hiring policies, diversity related policies have a tendency to emerge.






            share|improve this answer








            New contributor




            TBP is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
            Check out our Code of Conduct.










            As the other answers mention, there are potentially benefits from a more diverse team that, although they could theoretically be picked up as part of a measure of merit , in practice frequently aren't.



            Aside from any actual benefits to the company though, from the perspective of people monitoring hiring practices diversity is much easier to measure than merit. This makes life much easier for HR and middle management types, who can report a 20% increase in new hire diversity as a win rather more easily than they can report a 20% increase in new hire merit. Since these people tend to be involved in advising on hiring policies, diversity related policies have a tendency to emerge.







            share|improve this answer








            New contributor




            TBP is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
            Check out our Code of Conduct.









            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer






            New contributor




            TBP is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
            Check out our Code of Conduct.









            answered 5 hours ago









            TBPTBP

            411




            411




            New contributor




            TBP is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
            Check out our Code of Conduct.





            New contributor





            TBP is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
            Check out our Code of Conduct.






            TBP is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
            Check out our Code of Conduct.























                2














                You are assuming that when you are installing a system of true meritocracy will make any focus on diversity unnecessary, since skill does not depend on race or gender. Since skill actually does not depend on race and gender, this assumption sounds good in theory, but it does not hold up in the real world.



                You can install a system of "true meritocracy" in your company and try to inforce it with all kind of measures, but the truth is that it is impossible to build such a bubble and completely isolate it from the real world.



                In our society there are many ways how people can be disadvantaged by race, gender, wealth, social group etc. Here are some examples:




                • A woman who has kids is working on a part-time contract outperforms her coworkers on full-time contract, but her manager, whose wife stays at home with the kids, subconsciously (or consciously for that matter) feels that she can not fully focus on her job because "she also has to take care of her children" or he feels "sorry for the kids who need their mother". If she looks for a new job, she will do so from a position lower than warranted by her actual performance.

                • A black person is not graded fairly in his oral exam because he happened to come across an examiner who secretly holds racist views.

                • A smart kid from a poor family does not get good support at school, because her/his parents are busy to bring food on the table. It is expected from her/him to quickly find a paying job, because the family can not afford to maintan her/him in a higher eductation. At the same time a less gifted rich child will get all the support she/he needs by a paid tutor to attain good grades and will be supported financially by her/his parents during higher education.


                All these people are at a disvantantage in a recruitment process that does not factor in the systemic effect of race, gender and other bias that is still present in our society.



                You can even go further and say that only if you make sure that the composition of your workforce matches the one of society, you can truly install a meritocratic system. Structures tend to perpetuate themselves. A less diverse workforce will tend to remain like this, while on the other hand, a more diverse workforce will also stay more diverse.



                When your company is as diverse as society on all hierarchy levels, then it will be visible to everyone that anyone can make it to any position in the company. Only then you can truly hire people only based on their skills, because everyone, the hirer and the hiree will be aware that other non-related factors will not matter. Until then you will have to compensate for structural disadvantages of some applicants in your hiring process. The goal can not be to hire for diversity forever, but only when and as much as structural disadvantages are reflected in the company's workforce.






                share|improve this answer










                New contributor




                Sefe is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                Check out our Code of Conduct.
















                • 3





                  I don't believe you understand what meritocracy means by the examples given. You are also portraying the need of providing same outcomes instead of providing the same opportunities, which goes the opposite direction of what meritocracy is.

                  – fireshark519
                  4 hours ago











                • @fireshark519: My whole point is that you can not provide equal opportunities in isolation. The problem is that you can not hiere based on opportunity when the system doesn't provide that. You can take a look at an individual case and say "I have hired the best one for this position based only on merit.". But when your company has a non-diverse workforce, it is a sign that you are not providing equal opportunity. The outcome is a symptom of the problem.

                  – Sefe
                  3 hours ago






                • 1





                  again you miss what meritocracy is. I was hired at my current job as a business analyst with no degree, no shipping experience and nearly no business analyst experience. I did not have the opportunity to go to university because of the country I grew up in. Between me and the other candidate that was shortlisted, they had Finance BA background and a degree in business administration. I got the job because I had achieved the things they wanted for the job through my own merit and effort on previous roles (working in project analysis and improvement). equal opportunity

                  – fireshark519
                  3 hours ago








                • 3





                  You're conflating opportunity with outcome in this answer. You start of by assuming OP wants to install a "true meritocracy" in their company and then go on to list factors that are orthogonal to merit in your reasoning why it wont work. As an example, someone getting more tutoring will lead on average to them being a more meritorious hire (presumably all that practise led to greater skill assuming equal talent), so what you're arguing for is equality of outcome. The company does not have the resources to change opportunities at a societal level.

                  – Magisch
                  3 hours ago
















                2














                You are assuming that when you are installing a system of true meritocracy will make any focus on diversity unnecessary, since skill does not depend on race or gender. Since skill actually does not depend on race and gender, this assumption sounds good in theory, but it does not hold up in the real world.



                You can install a system of "true meritocracy" in your company and try to inforce it with all kind of measures, but the truth is that it is impossible to build such a bubble and completely isolate it from the real world.



                In our society there are many ways how people can be disadvantaged by race, gender, wealth, social group etc. Here are some examples:




                • A woman who has kids is working on a part-time contract outperforms her coworkers on full-time contract, but her manager, whose wife stays at home with the kids, subconsciously (or consciously for that matter) feels that she can not fully focus on her job because "she also has to take care of her children" or he feels "sorry for the kids who need their mother". If she looks for a new job, she will do so from a position lower than warranted by her actual performance.

                • A black person is not graded fairly in his oral exam because he happened to come across an examiner who secretly holds racist views.

                • A smart kid from a poor family does not get good support at school, because her/his parents are busy to bring food on the table. It is expected from her/him to quickly find a paying job, because the family can not afford to maintan her/him in a higher eductation. At the same time a less gifted rich child will get all the support she/he needs by a paid tutor to attain good grades and will be supported financially by her/his parents during higher education.


                All these people are at a disvantantage in a recruitment process that does not factor in the systemic effect of race, gender and other bias that is still present in our society.



                You can even go further and say that only if you make sure that the composition of your workforce matches the one of society, you can truly install a meritocratic system. Structures tend to perpetuate themselves. A less diverse workforce will tend to remain like this, while on the other hand, a more diverse workforce will also stay more diverse.



                When your company is as diverse as society on all hierarchy levels, then it will be visible to everyone that anyone can make it to any position in the company. Only then you can truly hire people only based on their skills, because everyone, the hirer and the hiree will be aware that other non-related factors will not matter. Until then you will have to compensate for structural disadvantages of some applicants in your hiring process. The goal can not be to hire for diversity forever, but only when and as much as structural disadvantages are reflected in the company's workforce.






                share|improve this answer










                New contributor




                Sefe is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                Check out our Code of Conduct.
















                • 3





                  I don't believe you understand what meritocracy means by the examples given. You are also portraying the need of providing same outcomes instead of providing the same opportunities, which goes the opposite direction of what meritocracy is.

                  – fireshark519
                  4 hours ago











                • @fireshark519: My whole point is that you can not provide equal opportunities in isolation. The problem is that you can not hiere based on opportunity when the system doesn't provide that. You can take a look at an individual case and say "I have hired the best one for this position based only on merit.". But when your company has a non-diverse workforce, it is a sign that you are not providing equal opportunity. The outcome is a symptom of the problem.

                  – Sefe
                  3 hours ago






                • 1





                  again you miss what meritocracy is. I was hired at my current job as a business analyst with no degree, no shipping experience and nearly no business analyst experience. I did not have the opportunity to go to university because of the country I grew up in. Between me and the other candidate that was shortlisted, they had Finance BA background and a degree in business administration. I got the job because I had achieved the things they wanted for the job through my own merit and effort on previous roles (working in project analysis and improvement). equal opportunity

                  – fireshark519
                  3 hours ago








                • 3





                  You're conflating opportunity with outcome in this answer. You start of by assuming OP wants to install a "true meritocracy" in their company and then go on to list factors that are orthogonal to merit in your reasoning why it wont work. As an example, someone getting more tutoring will lead on average to them being a more meritorious hire (presumably all that practise led to greater skill assuming equal talent), so what you're arguing for is equality of outcome. The company does not have the resources to change opportunities at a societal level.

                  – Magisch
                  3 hours ago














                2












                2








                2







                You are assuming that when you are installing a system of true meritocracy will make any focus on diversity unnecessary, since skill does not depend on race or gender. Since skill actually does not depend on race and gender, this assumption sounds good in theory, but it does not hold up in the real world.



                You can install a system of "true meritocracy" in your company and try to inforce it with all kind of measures, but the truth is that it is impossible to build such a bubble and completely isolate it from the real world.



                In our society there are many ways how people can be disadvantaged by race, gender, wealth, social group etc. Here are some examples:




                • A woman who has kids is working on a part-time contract outperforms her coworkers on full-time contract, but her manager, whose wife stays at home with the kids, subconsciously (or consciously for that matter) feels that she can not fully focus on her job because "she also has to take care of her children" or he feels "sorry for the kids who need their mother". If she looks for a new job, she will do so from a position lower than warranted by her actual performance.

                • A black person is not graded fairly in his oral exam because he happened to come across an examiner who secretly holds racist views.

                • A smart kid from a poor family does not get good support at school, because her/his parents are busy to bring food on the table. It is expected from her/him to quickly find a paying job, because the family can not afford to maintan her/him in a higher eductation. At the same time a less gifted rich child will get all the support she/he needs by a paid tutor to attain good grades and will be supported financially by her/his parents during higher education.


                All these people are at a disvantantage in a recruitment process that does not factor in the systemic effect of race, gender and other bias that is still present in our society.



                You can even go further and say that only if you make sure that the composition of your workforce matches the one of society, you can truly install a meritocratic system. Structures tend to perpetuate themselves. A less diverse workforce will tend to remain like this, while on the other hand, a more diverse workforce will also stay more diverse.



                When your company is as diverse as society on all hierarchy levels, then it will be visible to everyone that anyone can make it to any position in the company. Only then you can truly hire people only based on their skills, because everyone, the hirer and the hiree will be aware that other non-related factors will not matter. Until then you will have to compensate for structural disadvantages of some applicants in your hiring process. The goal can not be to hire for diversity forever, but only when and as much as structural disadvantages are reflected in the company's workforce.






                share|improve this answer










                New contributor




                Sefe is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                Check out our Code of Conduct.










                You are assuming that when you are installing a system of true meritocracy will make any focus on diversity unnecessary, since skill does not depend on race or gender. Since skill actually does not depend on race and gender, this assumption sounds good in theory, but it does not hold up in the real world.



                You can install a system of "true meritocracy" in your company and try to inforce it with all kind of measures, but the truth is that it is impossible to build such a bubble and completely isolate it from the real world.



                In our society there are many ways how people can be disadvantaged by race, gender, wealth, social group etc. Here are some examples:




                • A woman who has kids is working on a part-time contract outperforms her coworkers on full-time contract, but her manager, whose wife stays at home with the kids, subconsciously (or consciously for that matter) feels that she can not fully focus on her job because "she also has to take care of her children" or he feels "sorry for the kids who need their mother". If she looks for a new job, she will do so from a position lower than warranted by her actual performance.

                • A black person is not graded fairly in his oral exam because he happened to come across an examiner who secretly holds racist views.

                • A smart kid from a poor family does not get good support at school, because her/his parents are busy to bring food on the table. It is expected from her/him to quickly find a paying job, because the family can not afford to maintan her/him in a higher eductation. At the same time a less gifted rich child will get all the support she/he needs by a paid tutor to attain good grades and will be supported financially by her/his parents during higher education.


                All these people are at a disvantantage in a recruitment process that does not factor in the systemic effect of race, gender and other bias that is still present in our society.



                You can even go further and say that only if you make sure that the composition of your workforce matches the one of society, you can truly install a meritocratic system. Structures tend to perpetuate themselves. A less diverse workforce will tend to remain like this, while on the other hand, a more diverse workforce will also stay more diverse.



                When your company is as diverse as society on all hierarchy levels, then it will be visible to everyone that anyone can make it to any position in the company. Only then you can truly hire people only based on their skills, because everyone, the hirer and the hiree will be aware that other non-related factors will not matter. Until then you will have to compensate for structural disadvantages of some applicants in your hiring process. The goal can not be to hire for diversity forever, but only when and as much as structural disadvantages are reflected in the company's workforce.







                share|improve this answer










                New contributor




                Sefe is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                Check out our Code of Conduct.









                share|improve this answer



                share|improve this answer








                edited 2 hours ago





















                New contributor




                Sefe is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                Check out our Code of Conduct.









                answered 5 hours ago









                SefeSefe

                1533




                1533




                New contributor




                Sefe is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                Check out our Code of Conduct.





                New contributor





                Sefe is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                Check out our Code of Conduct.






                Sefe is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                Check out our Code of Conduct.








                • 3





                  I don't believe you understand what meritocracy means by the examples given. You are also portraying the need of providing same outcomes instead of providing the same opportunities, which goes the opposite direction of what meritocracy is.

                  – fireshark519
                  4 hours ago











                • @fireshark519: My whole point is that you can not provide equal opportunities in isolation. The problem is that you can not hiere based on opportunity when the system doesn't provide that. You can take a look at an individual case and say "I have hired the best one for this position based only on merit.". But when your company has a non-diverse workforce, it is a sign that you are not providing equal opportunity. The outcome is a symptom of the problem.

                  – Sefe
                  3 hours ago






                • 1





                  again you miss what meritocracy is. I was hired at my current job as a business analyst with no degree, no shipping experience and nearly no business analyst experience. I did not have the opportunity to go to university because of the country I grew up in. Between me and the other candidate that was shortlisted, they had Finance BA background and a degree in business administration. I got the job because I had achieved the things they wanted for the job through my own merit and effort on previous roles (working in project analysis and improvement). equal opportunity

                  – fireshark519
                  3 hours ago








                • 3





                  You're conflating opportunity with outcome in this answer. You start of by assuming OP wants to install a "true meritocracy" in their company and then go on to list factors that are orthogonal to merit in your reasoning why it wont work. As an example, someone getting more tutoring will lead on average to them being a more meritorious hire (presumably all that practise led to greater skill assuming equal talent), so what you're arguing for is equality of outcome. The company does not have the resources to change opportunities at a societal level.

                  – Magisch
                  3 hours ago














                • 3





                  I don't believe you understand what meritocracy means by the examples given. You are also portraying the need of providing same outcomes instead of providing the same opportunities, which goes the opposite direction of what meritocracy is.

                  – fireshark519
                  4 hours ago











                • @fireshark519: My whole point is that you can not provide equal opportunities in isolation. The problem is that you can not hiere based on opportunity when the system doesn't provide that. You can take a look at an individual case and say "I have hired the best one for this position based only on merit.". But when your company has a non-diverse workforce, it is a sign that you are not providing equal opportunity. The outcome is a symptom of the problem.

                  – Sefe
                  3 hours ago






                • 1





                  again you miss what meritocracy is. I was hired at my current job as a business analyst with no degree, no shipping experience and nearly no business analyst experience. I did not have the opportunity to go to university because of the country I grew up in. Between me and the other candidate that was shortlisted, they had Finance BA background and a degree in business administration. I got the job because I had achieved the things they wanted for the job through my own merit and effort on previous roles (working in project analysis and improvement). equal opportunity

                  – fireshark519
                  3 hours ago








                • 3





                  You're conflating opportunity with outcome in this answer. You start of by assuming OP wants to install a "true meritocracy" in their company and then go on to list factors that are orthogonal to merit in your reasoning why it wont work. As an example, someone getting more tutoring will lead on average to them being a more meritorious hire (presumably all that practise led to greater skill assuming equal talent), so what you're arguing for is equality of outcome. The company does not have the resources to change opportunities at a societal level.

                  – Magisch
                  3 hours ago








                3




                3





                I don't believe you understand what meritocracy means by the examples given. You are also portraying the need of providing same outcomes instead of providing the same opportunities, which goes the opposite direction of what meritocracy is.

                – fireshark519
                4 hours ago





                I don't believe you understand what meritocracy means by the examples given. You are also portraying the need of providing same outcomes instead of providing the same opportunities, which goes the opposite direction of what meritocracy is.

                – fireshark519
                4 hours ago













                @fireshark519: My whole point is that you can not provide equal opportunities in isolation. The problem is that you can not hiere based on opportunity when the system doesn't provide that. You can take a look at an individual case and say "I have hired the best one for this position based only on merit.". But when your company has a non-diverse workforce, it is a sign that you are not providing equal opportunity. The outcome is a symptom of the problem.

                – Sefe
                3 hours ago





                @fireshark519: My whole point is that you can not provide equal opportunities in isolation. The problem is that you can not hiere based on opportunity when the system doesn't provide that. You can take a look at an individual case and say "I have hired the best one for this position based only on merit.". But when your company has a non-diverse workforce, it is a sign that you are not providing equal opportunity. The outcome is a symptom of the problem.

                – Sefe
                3 hours ago




                1




                1





                again you miss what meritocracy is. I was hired at my current job as a business analyst with no degree, no shipping experience and nearly no business analyst experience. I did not have the opportunity to go to university because of the country I grew up in. Between me and the other candidate that was shortlisted, they had Finance BA background and a degree in business administration. I got the job because I had achieved the things they wanted for the job through my own merit and effort on previous roles (working in project analysis and improvement). equal opportunity

                – fireshark519
                3 hours ago







                again you miss what meritocracy is. I was hired at my current job as a business analyst with no degree, no shipping experience and nearly no business analyst experience. I did not have the opportunity to go to university because of the country I grew up in. Between me and the other candidate that was shortlisted, they had Finance BA background and a degree in business administration. I got the job because I had achieved the things they wanted for the job through my own merit and effort on previous roles (working in project analysis and improvement). equal opportunity

                – fireshark519
                3 hours ago






                3




                3





                You're conflating opportunity with outcome in this answer. You start of by assuming OP wants to install a "true meritocracy" in their company and then go on to list factors that are orthogonal to merit in your reasoning why it wont work. As an example, someone getting more tutoring will lead on average to them being a more meritorious hire (presumably all that practise led to greater skill assuming equal talent), so what you're arguing for is equality of outcome. The company does not have the resources to change opportunities at a societal level.

                – Magisch
                3 hours ago





                You're conflating opportunity with outcome in this answer. You start of by assuming OP wants to install a "true meritocracy" in their company and then go on to list factors that are orthogonal to merit in your reasoning why it wont work. As an example, someone getting more tutoring will lead on average to them being a more meritorious hire (presumably all that practise led to greater skill assuming equal talent), so what you're arguing for is equality of outcome. The company does not have the resources to change opportunities at a societal level.

                – Magisch
                3 hours ago











                2














                Just an idea: if you have a non-diverse clientele (all customers being of the same/similar background), then diversity might not bring a lot of advantages (at least where customer satisfaction is concerned).



                However, if your customer base is more diverse (different backgrounds), then the presence of similar backgrounds in your company might foresee possible issues/questions the customer will have, which will make it easier and faster to respond to any customer demands.






                share|improve this answer


























                • You need to add an extra layer: only if you have a non-diverse clientele, who themselves also have non-diverse customers or end-users does this apply. If your non-diverse clients cater to diverse customers, you still need the extra insight.

                  – Erik
                  48 mins ago
















                2














                Just an idea: if you have a non-diverse clientele (all customers being of the same/similar background), then diversity might not bring a lot of advantages (at least where customer satisfaction is concerned).



                However, if your customer base is more diverse (different backgrounds), then the presence of similar backgrounds in your company might foresee possible issues/questions the customer will have, which will make it easier and faster to respond to any customer demands.






                share|improve this answer


























                • You need to add an extra layer: only if you have a non-diverse clientele, who themselves also have non-diverse customers or end-users does this apply. If your non-diverse clients cater to diverse customers, you still need the extra insight.

                  – Erik
                  48 mins ago














                2












                2








                2







                Just an idea: if you have a non-diverse clientele (all customers being of the same/similar background), then diversity might not bring a lot of advantages (at least where customer satisfaction is concerned).



                However, if your customer base is more diverse (different backgrounds), then the presence of similar backgrounds in your company might foresee possible issues/questions the customer will have, which will make it easier and faster to respond to any customer demands.






                share|improve this answer















                Just an idea: if you have a non-diverse clientele (all customers being of the same/similar background), then diversity might not bring a lot of advantages (at least where customer satisfaction is concerned).



                However, if your customer base is more diverse (different backgrounds), then the presence of similar backgrounds in your company might foresee possible issues/questions the customer will have, which will make it easier and faster to respond to any customer demands.







                share|improve this answer














                share|improve this answer



                share|improve this answer








                edited 2 hours ago









                Ruther Rendommeleigh

                24226




                24226










                answered 5 hours ago









                DominiqueDominique

                1,204315




                1,204315













                • You need to add an extra layer: only if you have a non-diverse clientele, who themselves also have non-diverse customers or end-users does this apply. If your non-diverse clients cater to diverse customers, you still need the extra insight.

                  – Erik
                  48 mins ago



















                • You need to add an extra layer: only if you have a non-diverse clientele, who themselves also have non-diverse customers or end-users does this apply. If your non-diverse clients cater to diverse customers, you still need the extra insight.

                  – Erik
                  48 mins ago

















                You need to add an extra layer: only if you have a non-diverse clientele, who themselves also have non-diverse customers or end-users does this apply. If your non-diverse clients cater to diverse customers, you still need the extra insight.

                – Erik
                48 mins ago





                You need to add an extra layer: only if you have a non-diverse clientele, who themselves also have non-diverse customers or end-users does this apply. If your non-diverse clients cater to diverse customers, you still need the extra insight.

                – Erik
                48 mins ago











                2














                If you're talking about diversity in terms of casting a wide net, then yes. It can provide different perspectives and protect a company from falling into an echo chamber. But the diversity in perspective is what matters.



                If you have a collection of racially, ethnically, and spiritually diverse people who all went to Harvard, you're going to have an echo chamber.



                Even your question is a bit loaded.



                You're question suggests a false dichotomy in that EITHER a group is based on diversity OR it's meritocracy.



                The implication being that if you hire the best, you won't get a diverse group.



                That's the same as saying that people from some backgrounds aren't good enough to get hired by ordinary means.



                I've had an interesting life, and have been exposed to all sorts of people from all sorts of backgrounds. A friend of mine is currently rebuilding himself from being homeless, for example and I did the same myself.



                Racial and cultural backgrounds alone do not ensure the kind of diversity of perspective that is said to be sought.



                Back to my Harvard example. You will have a group that seems to be very diverse, but will essentially be an echo chamber as their backgrounds and experiences will have more in common than different.



                But, if you have a group where one person had come up from the mean streets, paid his own way to school while working nights and taking care of his sick aunt may, until he clawed his way up to the top, and another person who came from a wealthy background, and was able to make many high-level connections along the way, you'd have a diverse team, even if both were black, white Asian, Christian, Muslim, et cetera.



                Another thing you need to be careful of is in not turning your diversity outreach into a "diversity hire mill", where you are excluding people because of their backgrounds either, nor should you hire someone without merit, as that will cause numerous other problems.



                Example, You hire A and B through your diversity program. "A" is an all-star, brilliant in her work, and better than half your team coming right in the door, definitely has a future with your company. "B", is mediocre at best, has a bad attitude, knows that she's hired through the diversity program, and is using that as job security.



                Comments will come (either publicly or privately) that "That's what you get for hiring people like "b". A will certainly feel the pressure as well. Even if "A"'s performance remains remarkable, or even improves, "A" might get labeled as a "diversity hire", pushed aside, and passed over for promotion, or worse, promoted out of the way and left to stagnate.



                IF you want to eliminate bias, you can pass people resume's with no personal information on the, so that they don't know the person's background, and then screen from there, but if you go in with the attitude that the two are mutually exclusive, then you are, from the word go, accepting sopme people are just not good enough due to their race/color/creed. That's where you will ruin your company.






                share|improve this answer




























                  2














                  If you're talking about diversity in terms of casting a wide net, then yes. It can provide different perspectives and protect a company from falling into an echo chamber. But the diversity in perspective is what matters.



                  If you have a collection of racially, ethnically, and spiritually diverse people who all went to Harvard, you're going to have an echo chamber.



                  Even your question is a bit loaded.



                  You're question suggests a false dichotomy in that EITHER a group is based on diversity OR it's meritocracy.



                  The implication being that if you hire the best, you won't get a diverse group.



                  That's the same as saying that people from some backgrounds aren't good enough to get hired by ordinary means.



                  I've had an interesting life, and have been exposed to all sorts of people from all sorts of backgrounds. A friend of mine is currently rebuilding himself from being homeless, for example and I did the same myself.



                  Racial and cultural backgrounds alone do not ensure the kind of diversity of perspective that is said to be sought.



                  Back to my Harvard example. You will have a group that seems to be very diverse, but will essentially be an echo chamber as their backgrounds and experiences will have more in common than different.



                  But, if you have a group where one person had come up from the mean streets, paid his own way to school while working nights and taking care of his sick aunt may, until he clawed his way up to the top, and another person who came from a wealthy background, and was able to make many high-level connections along the way, you'd have a diverse team, even if both were black, white Asian, Christian, Muslim, et cetera.



                  Another thing you need to be careful of is in not turning your diversity outreach into a "diversity hire mill", where you are excluding people because of their backgrounds either, nor should you hire someone without merit, as that will cause numerous other problems.



                  Example, You hire A and B through your diversity program. "A" is an all-star, brilliant in her work, and better than half your team coming right in the door, definitely has a future with your company. "B", is mediocre at best, has a bad attitude, knows that she's hired through the diversity program, and is using that as job security.



                  Comments will come (either publicly or privately) that "That's what you get for hiring people like "b". A will certainly feel the pressure as well. Even if "A"'s performance remains remarkable, or even improves, "A" might get labeled as a "diversity hire", pushed aside, and passed over for promotion, or worse, promoted out of the way and left to stagnate.



                  IF you want to eliminate bias, you can pass people resume's with no personal information on the, so that they don't know the person's background, and then screen from there, but if you go in with the attitude that the two are mutually exclusive, then you are, from the word go, accepting sopme people are just not good enough due to their race/color/creed. That's where you will ruin your company.






                  share|improve this answer


























                    2












                    2








                    2







                    If you're talking about diversity in terms of casting a wide net, then yes. It can provide different perspectives and protect a company from falling into an echo chamber. But the diversity in perspective is what matters.



                    If you have a collection of racially, ethnically, and spiritually diverse people who all went to Harvard, you're going to have an echo chamber.



                    Even your question is a bit loaded.



                    You're question suggests a false dichotomy in that EITHER a group is based on diversity OR it's meritocracy.



                    The implication being that if you hire the best, you won't get a diverse group.



                    That's the same as saying that people from some backgrounds aren't good enough to get hired by ordinary means.



                    I've had an interesting life, and have been exposed to all sorts of people from all sorts of backgrounds. A friend of mine is currently rebuilding himself from being homeless, for example and I did the same myself.



                    Racial and cultural backgrounds alone do not ensure the kind of diversity of perspective that is said to be sought.



                    Back to my Harvard example. You will have a group that seems to be very diverse, but will essentially be an echo chamber as their backgrounds and experiences will have more in common than different.



                    But, if you have a group where one person had come up from the mean streets, paid his own way to school while working nights and taking care of his sick aunt may, until he clawed his way up to the top, and another person who came from a wealthy background, and was able to make many high-level connections along the way, you'd have a diverse team, even if both were black, white Asian, Christian, Muslim, et cetera.



                    Another thing you need to be careful of is in not turning your diversity outreach into a "diversity hire mill", where you are excluding people because of their backgrounds either, nor should you hire someone without merit, as that will cause numerous other problems.



                    Example, You hire A and B through your diversity program. "A" is an all-star, brilliant in her work, and better than half your team coming right in the door, definitely has a future with your company. "B", is mediocre at best, has a bad attitude, knows that she's hired through the diversity program, and is using that as job security.



                    Comments will come (either publicly or privately) that "That's what you get for hiring people like "b". A will certainly feel the pressure as well. Even if "A"'s performance remains remarkable, or even improves, "A" might get labeled as a "diversity hire", pushed aside, and passed over for promotion, or worse, promoted out of the way and left to stagnate.



                    IF you want to eliminate bias, you can pass people resume's with no personal information on the, so that they don't know the person's background, and then screen from there, but if you go in with the attitude that the two are mutually exclusive, then you are, from the word go, accepting sopme people are just not good enough due to their race/color/creed. That's where you will ruin your company.






                    share|improve this answer













                    If you're talking about diversity in terms of casting a wide net, then yes. It can provide different perspectives and protect a company from falling into an echo chamber. But the diversity in perspective is what matters.



                    If you have a collection of racially, ethnically, and spiritually diverse people who all went to Harvard, you're going to have an echo chamber.



                    Even your question is a bit loaded.



                    You're question suggests a false dichotomy in that EITHER a group is based on diversity OR it's meritocracy.



                    The implication being that if you hire the best, you won't get a diverse group.



                    That's the same as saying that people from some backgrounds aren't good enough to get hired by ordinary means.



                    I've had an interesting life, and have been exposed to all sorts of people from all sorts of backgrounds. A friend of mine is currently rebuilding himself from being homeless, for example and I did the same myself.



                    Racial and cultural backgrounds alone do not ensure the kind of diversity of perspective that is said to be sought.



                    Back to my Harvard example. You will have a group that seems to be very diverse, but will essentially be an echo chamber as their backgrounds and experiences will have more in common than different.



                    But, if you have a group where one person had come up from the mean streets, paid his own way to school while working nights and taking care of his sick aunt may, until he clawed his way up to the top, and another person who came from a wealthy background, and was able to make many high-level connections along the way, you'd have a diverse team, even if both were black, white Asian, Christian, Muslim, et cetera.



                    Another thing you need to be careful of is in not turning your diversity outreach into a "diversity hire mill", where you are excluding people because of their backgrounds either, nor should you hire someone without merit, as that will cause numerous other problems.



                    Example, You hire A and B through your diversity program. "A" is an all-star, brilliant in her work, and better than half your team coming right in the door, definitely has a future with your company. "B", is mediocre at best, has a bad attitude, knows that she's hired through the diversity program, and is using that as job security.



                    Comments will come (either publicly or privately) that "That's what you get for hiring people like "b". A will certainly feel the pressure as well. Even if "A"'s performance remains remarkable, or even improves, "A" might get labeled as a "diversity hire", pushed aside, and passed over for promotion, or worse, promoted out of the way and left to stagnate.



                    IF you want to eliminate bias, you can pass people resume's with no personal information on the, so that they don't know the person's background, and then screen from there, but if you go in with the attitude that the two are mutually exclusive, then you are, from the word go, accepting sopme people are just not good enough due to their race/color/creed. That's where you will ruin your company.







                    share|improve this answer












                    share|improve this answer



                    share|improve this answer










                    answered 1 hour ago









                    Richard URichard U

                    96.9k71259385




                    96.9k71259385























                        0















                        why do unbiased people believe that some (non-PR) utility would be provided to their companies by hiring a more diverse staff instead of simply relying on meritocracy itself?




                        Human beings, including "unbiased people" are capable of believing nearly anything for any reason. But when people form any given belief, they don't typically change it unless it is shown to be demonstrably wrong in some way that is costly to ignore.



                        Belief in diversity's benefits is a relatively non-costly belief for HR personnel, and those benefits are difficult to measure objectively. If the benefits of diverse hiring practices don't actually exist, the effort in seeking additional diversity doesn't negatively impact the company much or at all.



                        Consider that top companies like Google still have 80% male development teams because that's who they can find, even after spending lots of time and money to try to hire more women. It's not like if a software company can only find 3 white dudes no matter how hard it tries, it won't eventually hire one of the white dudes instead of keep the position open forever.






                        share|improve this answer








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                          0















                          why do unbiased people believe that some (non-PR) utility would be provided to their companies by hiring a more diverse staff instead of simply relying on meritocracy itself?




                          Human beings, including "unbiased people" are capable of believing nearly anything for any reason. But when people form any given belief, they don't typically change it unless it is shown to be demonstrably wrong in some way that is costly to ignore.



                          Belief in diversity's benefits is a relatively non-costly belief for HR personnel, and those benefits are difficult to measure objectively. If the benefits of diverse hiring practices don't actually exist, the effort in seeking additional diversity doesn't negatively impact the company much or at all.



                          Consider that top companies like Google still have 80% male development teams because that's who they can find, even after spending lots of time and money to try to hire more women. It's not like if a software company can only find 3 white dudes no matter how hard it tries, it won't eventually hire one of the white dudes instead of keep the position open forever.






                          share|improve this answer








                          New contributor




                          Joe is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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                            0












                            0








                            0








                            why do unbiased people believe that some (non-PR) utility would be provided to their companies by hiring a more diverse staff instead of simply relying on meritocracy itself?




                            Human beings, including "unbiased people" are capable of believing nearly anything for any reason. But when people form any given belief, they don't typically change it unless it is shown to be demonstrably wrong in some way that is costly to ignore.



                            Belief in diversity's benefits is a relatively non-costly belief for HR personnel, and those benefits are difficult to measure objectively. If the benefits of diverse hiring practices don't actually exist, the effort in seeking additional diversity doesn't negatively impact the company much or at all.



                            Consider that top companies like Google still have 80% male development teams because that's who they can find, even after spending lots of time and money to try to hire more women. It's not like if a software company can only find 3 white dudes no matter how hard it tries, it won't eventually hire one of the white dudes instead of keep the position open forever.






                            share|improve this answer








                            New contributor




                            Joe is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                            Check out our Code of Conduct.











                            why do unbiased people believe that some (non-PR) utility would be provided to their companies by hiring a more diverse staff instead of simply relying on meritocracy itself?




                            Human beings, including "unbiased people" are capable of believing nearly anything for any reason. But when people form any given belief, they don't typically change it unless it is shown to be demonstrably wrong in some way that is costly to ignore.



                            Belief in diversity's benefits is a relatively non-costly belief for HR personnel, and those benefits are difficult to measure objectively. If the benefits of diverse hiring practices don't actually exist, the effort in seeking additional diversity doesn't negatively impact the company much or at all.



                            Consider that top companies like Google still have 80% male development teams because that's who they can find, even after spending lots of time and money to try to hire more women. It's not like if a software company can only find 3 white dudes no matter how hard it tries, it won't eventually hire one of the white dudes instead of keep the position open forever.







                            share|improve this answer








                            New contributor




                            Joe is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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                            share|improve this answer



                            share|improve this answer






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                            answered 4 hours ago









                            JoeJoe

                            77915




                            77915




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                            New contributor





                            Joe is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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