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Why is 'diphthong' pronounced the way it is?


Pterodactyl and Archeopteryx: Silent P vs Voiced PWhy is “women” pronounced the way it is?Why is “blood” pronounced the way it is?Why is “albeit” pronounced the way it is?Why is “service” pronounced the way it is?Why is “delight” spelt and pronounced the way it is?Why is “does” sometimes pronounced “is”?Why are “look” and “school” pronounced differently?Why not pronounce single characters the same way as they are pronounced in words?vowel sound in “stair” pronounced similarly as the “eɪ” diphthong in “fake”?Why is Levi's pronounced the way it is?













7















According to Wiktionary, the word comes:




From French diphtongue, from Ancient Greek δίφθογγος (díphthongos,
“two sounds”), from δίς (dís, “twice”) + φθόγγος (phthóngos, “sound”)




Separated into its two logical parts and translated loosely as 'two-sound', it can be compared to any of a variety of other words prefixed with 'di-', such as digraph and diglot, each of which is pronounced with a leading (ironically itself a diphthong) ˈdaɪ, not ˈdɪ.



Why is this word parsed this way? With dissect, for example, it is at least acknowledged that 'dis-sect' is a logical alternative to 'di-s[s]ect', the prevailing pronunciation. With 'diphthong', nobody even seems to ever raise an eyebrow.










share|improve this question









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  • 2





    How else do you mean it could be pronounced? Why would anyone "raise an eyebrow" when it's just natural and logical? Can you please expand?

    – Kris
    10 hours ago











  • When I say it otherwise, people stare.

    – Greg Lee
    10 hours ago











  • Related (not dupe): english.stackexchange.com/questions/103014/…

    – James McLeod
    9 hours ago






  • 5





    Then you should also say helico-pter

    – Hagen von Eitzen
    8 hours ago






  • 1





    @Kris As di-phthong, 'dye-fthong'.

    – aabeba
    7 hours ago
















7















According to Wiktionary, the word comes:




From French diphtongue, from Ancient Greek δίφθογγος (díphthongos,
“two sounds”), from δίς (dís, “twice”) + φθόγγος (phthóngos, “sound”)




Separated into its two logical parts and translated loosely as 'two-sound', it can be compared to any of a variety of other words prefixed with 'di-', such as digraph and diglot, each of which is pronounced with a leading (ironically itself a diphthong) ˈdaɪ, not ˈdɪ.



Why is this word parsed this way? With dissect, for example, it is at least acknowledged that 'dis-sect' is a logical alternative to 'di-s[s]ect', the prevailing pronunciation. With 'diphthong', nobody even seems to ever raise an eyebrow.










share|improve this question









New contributor




aabeba is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
















  • 2





    How else do you mean it could be pronounced? Why would anyone "raise an eyebrow" when it's just natural and logical? Can you please expand?

    – Kris
    10 hours ago











  • When I say it otherwise, people stare.

    – Greg Lee
    10 hours ago











  • Related (not dupe): english.stackexchange.com/questions/103014/…

    – James McLeod
    9 hours ago






  • 5





    Then you should also say helico-pter

    – Hagen von Eitzen
    8 hours ago






  • 1





    @Kris As di-phthong, 'dye-fthong'.

    – aabeba
    7 hours ago














7












7








7


1






According to Wiktionary, the word comes:




From French diphtongue, from Ancient Greek δίφθογγος (díphthongos,
“two sounds”), from δίς (dís, “twice”) + φθόγγος (phthóngos, “sound”)




Separated into its two logical parts and translated loosely as 'two-sound', it can be compared to any of a variety of other words prefixed with 'di-', such as digraph and diglot, each of which is pronounced with a leading (ironically itself a diphthong) ˈdaɪ, not ˈdɪ.



Why is this word parsed this way? With dissect, for example, it is at least acknowledged that 'dis-sect' is a logical alternative to 'di-s[s]ect', the prevailing pronunciation. With 'diphthong', nobody even seems to ever raise an eyebrow.










share|improve this question









New contributor




aabeba is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.












According to Wiktionary, the word comes:




From French diphtongue, from Ancient Greek δίφθογγος (díphthongos,
“two sounds”), from δίς (dís, “twice”) + φθόγγος (phthóngos, “sound”)




Separated into its two logical parts and translated loosely as 'two-sound', it can be compared to any of a variety of other words prefixed with 'di-', such as digraph and diglot, each of which is pronounced with a leading (ironically itself a diphthong) ˈdaɪ, not ˈdɪ.



Why is this word parsed this way? With dissect, for example, it is at least acknowledged that 'dis-sect' is a logical alternative to 'di-s[s]ect', the prevailing pronunciation. With 'diphthong', nobody even seems to ever raise an eyebrow.







pronunciation






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share|improve this question









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share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited 2 hours ago









Azor Ahai

3,88521434




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asked 11 hours ago









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  • 2





    How else do you mean it could be pronounced? Why would anyone "raise an eyebrow" when it's just natural and logical? Can you please expand?

    – Kris
    10 hours ago











  • When I say it otherwise, people stare.

    – Greg Lee
    10 hours ago











  • Related (not dupe): english.stackexchange.com/questions/103014/…

    – James McLeod
    9 hours ago






  • 5





    Then you should also say helico-pter

    – Hagen von Eitzen
    8 hours ago






  • 1





    @Kris As di-phthong, 'dye-fthong'.

    – aabeba
    7 hours ago














  • 2





    How else do you mean it could be pronounced? Why would anyone "raise an eyebrow" when it's just natural and logical? Can you please expand?

    – Kris
    10 hours ago











  • When I say it otherwise, people stare.

    – Greg Lee
    10 hours ago











  • Related (not dupe): english.stackexchange.com/questions/103014/…

    – James McLeod
    9 hours ago






  • 5





    Then you should also say helico-pter

    – Hagen von Eitzen
    8 hours ago






  • 1





    @Kris As di-phthong, 'dye-fthong'.

    – aabeba
    7 hours ago








2




2





How else do you mean it could be pronounced? Why would anyone "raise an eyebrow" when it's just natural and logical? Can you please expand?

– Kris
10 hours ago





How else do you mean it could be pronounced? Why would anyone "raise an eyebrow" when it's just natural and logical? Can you please expand?

– Kris
10 hours ago













When I say it otherwise, people stare.

– Greg Lee
10 hours ago





When I say it otherwise, people stare.

– Greg Lee
10 hours ago













Related (not dupe): english.stackexchange.com/questions/103014/…

– James McLeod
9 hours ago





Related (not dupe): english.stackexchange.com/questions/103014/…

– James McLeod
9 hours ago




5




5





Then you should also say helico-pter

– Hagen von Eitzen
8 hours ago





Then you should also say helico-pter

– Hagen von Eitzen
8 hours ago




1




1





@Kris As di-phthong, 'dye-fthong'.

– aabeba
7 hours ago





@Kris As di-phthong, 'dye-fthong'.

– aabeba
7 hours ago










4 Answers
4






active

oldest

votes


















23














We break diphthong into syllables differently than the Greeks did. We break it diph-thong, whereas etymologically it is di-phthong. Because there's a consonant on the end of the first syllable, it's natural for English speakers to pronounce it with a "short i", /ɪ/.



The same thing happens with diptych, whose etymology is di+ptykha, where ptykha means folds.






share|improve this answer


























  • Thanks. Care to opine on why dissect is pronounced di-ssect, not dis-sect? Any such rule at work here?

    – aabeba
    7 hours ago






  • 4





    @aabeba Dissect can be pronounced either way, and the short vowel is the original; the diphthongal pronunciation presumably came about due to influence from other words with the /daɪ-/ pronunciation. The prefix dis- (short vowel) in both Latin and Greek became dī- (long vowel) before some voiced consonants, which created side-forms with long and short vowels. The long vowel was diphthongised as part of the Great Vowel Shift in English, leaving two identical prefixes pronounced quite differently; it’s not surprisingly that some confusion would ensue.

    – Janus Bahs Jacquet
    7 hours ago








  • 3





    Slightly off-topic, but along the same lines: we break helicopter as heli-copter, when helico-pter would be truer to the Greek etymology.

    – gspr
    7 hours ago













  • Yes, helicopter is an interesting one. I suppose you can imitate the source tongue to only a degree before you are forced to yield to physiological and practical limitations.

    – aabeba
    7 hours ago






  • 3





    @aabeba It's not a physiological or practical limitation, because presumably Greek native speakers would have been fine with that syllabication; it has to do with our phonotactics.

    – Azor Ahai
    2 hours ago



















3














In words from Greek or Latin, a single vowel letter before a consonant cluster that cannot1 occur at the start of a word tends to take its "short"2 pronunciation. The consonant cluster in the middle of "diphthong" cannot come at the start of a word (whether you pronounce it as /fθ/ or as /pθ/), so the "i" in the first syllable is pronounced as /ɪ/.



The converse is not true: before a consonant cluster that can start a word, a single vowel letter may either be "short" or "long". For example, "diploid" is pronounced with /ɪ/ even though there are words that start with /pl/.



As Peter Shor mentioned, the criterion can also be formulated in terms of syllabification. An "open" syllable ends in a vowel, and a "closed" syllable ends in a consonant. In general, we can say that non-final closed syllables in English tend not to have "long vowel" sounds, although that isn't a firm rule of English phonotactics: there are words like "paraleipsis", where the penultimate syllable is closed and pronounced /laɪp/. This is why I included spelling in the rule that I gave at the start of this answer: it would be possible to have a word pronounced /ˈdaɪfθɒŋ/ or /ˈdaɪpθɒŋ/, but it wouldn't be expected to be spelled with diphth-.



There are different approaches to syllabification, but one commonly used criterion says that a consonant cluster can start a syllable only if it can start a word. This criterion implies that consonant clusters that cannot1 occur at the start of a word like /fθ/ always cause the preceding syllable to be closed. Consonant clusters that can occur at the start of a word, like /pl/, would typically be expected to form a syllable onset when the occur word-medially, but some people would argue that the use of /ɪ/ in the first syllable of "diploid" implies the syllabification dip.loid. It's unclear why diploid would be syllabified differently from diglot.






  1. According to the phonotactic rules for typical English words. Exceptions like some people's pronunciation of "phthalate" do not count. Incidentally, some people pronounce words like "psychic" with /ps/, but /ps/ also does not count as "a consonant cluster that can occur at the start of a word" for the purposes of this rule.


  2. "Short" in the phonological, not the phonetic sense: short a e i o u are the phonemes /æ ɛ ɪ ɒ ʌ/. (In American English, /ɑ/ is used instead of /ɒ/.) An alternative term that has been used is "lax".







share|improve this answer


























  • Phonotactics, eh? Are these firm rules, or merely guidelines that indicate which consonant clusters "should be" impossible for natives of a language to pronounce? Is there a descriptivist front I can sign up for to push for a more progressive English language phonetic system?

    – aabeba
    7 hours ago






  • 1





    The consonant cluster /fθ/ can absolutely appear at the beginning of a word, at least to some people: phthalate/phthalic begins with it, as do phthisis (if you don’t pronounce it /ˈtaɪsɪs/, that is) and the perhaps rather recondite Phthiraptera.

    – Janus Bahs Jacquet
    7 hours ago











  • But not, say, /pt,/ or /pht/? Pteranodon and pterodactyl, come to mind. And is there any reason initial /ks/ (xylophone, Xerox) still clings to that pesky French 'z' sound?

    – aabeba
    6 hours ago











  • @aabeba: But isn't the French gzeelofon?

    – Peter Shor
    38 mins ago











  • @aabeba: The spelling-based "rules" that I talk about in this answer are mostly based on the phonotactics of certain historical stages of English. They aren't necessarily linked to whether English speakers find it impossible to pronounce certain sequences of sounds.

    – sumelic
    35 mins ago





















0














φθόγγος, diphthongs [this program will not show the lower case φ]



The φ [or lower case version which I can't get here] was sound PH is Ancient Greek.



It started being pronounced as "an aspirated voiceless bilabial plosive, which was the origin of its usual romanization as ." [phytoplankton] [Wikipedia] That is: fee



In modern Greek you get the f sound: dif-thongos where th is theta and i is like ee is fee. (Sorry, can't do the phonemic rendition).



The syllabification in Greek is: δίφ-θόγγος [deef-thongos]but the pronunciation in English is: dip-thong. And the Greek ph as f sound disappears. Only the spelling remains, like the Cheshire Cat's grin. There is no f sound in English in the English pronunciation of the Greek "transliterated" spelling.






share|improve this answer
























  • "Diphthong" may be pronounced in English with either /fθ/ or /pθ/. Dictionaries list both pronunciations.

    – sumelic
    1 hour ago



















-1














Words that do not originate in English does not necessarily follow English pronunciation rules, And diphthong is no difference as well.



Look at the word dilemma - It is pronounced with dih instead of dahy.
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/dilemma?s=t



Now look at the verb divulse - it is pronounces with dahy
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/divulse?s=t



But the noun divulsion is pronounced with a dih



https://www.dictionary.com/browse/divulsion?s=t






share|improve this answer



















  • 2





    Actually, dilemma can be pronounced both ways.

    – Kate Bunting
    9 hours ago






  • 1





    What language is this "dahy" pronunciation? It certainly isn't British English.

    – alephzero
    8 hours ago











  • @alephzero Silent h.

    – Mr Lister
    8 hours ago











  • @alephzero American English, surely?

    – aabeba
    7 hours ago






  • 1





    @TylerH that’s the one I mean—“die-lemma”.

    – aabeba
    2 hours ago











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4 Answers
4






active

oldest

votes








4 Answers
4






active

oldest

votes









active

oldest

votes






active

oldest

votes









23














We break diphthong into syllables differently than the Greeks did. We break it diph-thong, whereas etymologically it is di-phthong. Because there's a consonant on the end of the first syllable, it's natural for English speakers to pronounce it with a "short i", /ɪ/.



The same thing happens with diptych, whose etymology is di+ptykha, where ptykha means folds.






share|improve this answer


























  • Thanks. Care to opine on why dissect is pronounced di-ssect, not dis-sect? Any such rule at work here?

    – aabeba
    7 hours ago






  • 4





    @aabeba Dissect can be pronounced either way, and the short vowel is the original; the diphthongal pronunciation presumably came about due to influence from other words with the /daɪ-/ pronunciation. The prefix dis- (short vowel) in both Latin and Greek became dī- (long vowel) before some voiced consonants, which created side-forms with long and short vowels. The long vowel was diphthongised as part of the Great Vowel Shift in English, leaving two identical prefixes pronounced quite differently; it’s not surprisingly that some confusion would ensue.

    – Janus Bahs Jacquet
    7 hours ago








  • 3





    Slightly off-topic, but along the same lines: we break helicopter as heli-copter, when helico-pter would be truer to the Greek etymology.

    – gspr
    7 hours ago













  • Yes, helicopter is an interesting one. I suppose you can imitate the source tongue to only a degree before you are forced to yield to physiological and practical limitations.

    – aabeba
    7 hours ago






  • 3





    @aabeba It's not a physiological or practical limitation, because presumably Greek native speakers would have been fine with that syllabication; it has to do with our phonotactics.

    – Azor Ahai
    2 hours ago
















23














We break diphthong into syllables differently than the Greeks did. We break it diph-thong, whereas etymologically it is di-phthong. Because there's a consonant on the end of the first syllable, it's natural for English speakers to pronounce it with a "short i", /ɪ/.



The same thing happens with diptych, whose etymology is di+ptykha, where ptykha means folds.






share|improve this answer


























  • Thanks. Care to opine on why dissect is pronounced di-ssect, not dis-sect? Any such rule at work here?

    – aabeba
    7 hours ago






  • 4





    @aabeba Dissect can be pronounced either way, and the short vowel is the original; the diphthongal pronunciation presumably came about due to influence from other words with the /daɪ-/ pronunciation. The prefix dis- (short vowel) in both Latin and Greek became dī- (long vowel) before some voiced consonants, which created side-forms with long and short vowels. The long vowel was diphthongised as part of the Great Vowel Shift in English, leaving two identical prefixes pronounced quite differently; it’s not surprisingly that some confusion would ensue.

    – Janus Bahs Jacquet
    7 hours ago








  • 3





    Slightly off-topic, but along the same lines: we break helicopter as heli-copter, when helico-pter would be truer to the Greek etymology.

    – gspr
    7 hours ago













  • Yes, helicopter is an interesting one. I suppose you can imitate the source tongue to only a degree before you are forced to yield to physiological and practical limitations.

    – aabeba
    7 hours ago






  • 3





    @aabeba It's not a physiological or practical limitation, because presumably Greek native speakers would have been fine with that syllabication; it has to do with our phonotactics.

    – Azor Ahai
    2 hours ago














23












23








23







We break diphthong into syllables differently than the Greeks did. We break it diph-thong, whereas etymologically it is di-phthong. Because there's a consonant on the end of the first syllable, it's natural for English speakers to pronounce it with a "short i", /ɪ/.



The same thing happens with diptych, whose etymology is di+ptykha, where ptykha means folds.






share|improve this answer















We break diphthong into syllables differently than the Greeks did. We break it diph-thong, whereas etymologically it is di-phthong. Because there's a consonant on the end of the first syllable, it's natural for English speakers to pronounce it with a "short i", /ɪ/.



The same thing happens with diptych, whose etymology is di+ptykha, where ptykha means folds.







share|improve this answer














share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer








edited 7 hours ago









terdon

17.1k1266111




17.1k1266111










answered 10 hours ago









Peter Shor Peter Shor

62.6k5117227




62.6k5117227













  • Thanks. Care to opine on why dissect is pronounced di-ssect, not dis-sect? Any such rule at work here?

    – aabeba
    7 hours ago






  • 4





    @aabeba Dissect can be pronounced either way, and the short vowel is the original; the diphthongal pronunciation presumably came about due to influence from other words with the /daɪ-/ pronunciation. The prefix dis- (short vowel) in both Latin and Greek became dī- (long vowel) before some voiced consonants, which created side-forms with long and short vowels. The long vowel was diphthongised as part of the Great Vowel Shift in English, leaving two identical prefixes pronounced quite differently; it’s not surprisingly that some confusion would ensue.

    – Janus Bahs Jacquet
    7 hours ago








  • 3





    Slightly off-topic, but along the same lines: we break helicopter as heli-copter, when helico-pter would be truer to the Greek etymology.

    – gspr
    7 hours ago













  • Yes, helicopter is an interesting one. I suppose you can imitate the source tongue to only a degree before you are forced to yield to physiological and practical limitations.

    – aabeba
    7 hours ago






  • 3





    @aabeba It's not a physiological or practical limitation, because presumably Greek native speakers would have been fine with that syllabication; it has to do with our phonotactics.

    – Azor Ahai
    2 hours ago



















  • Thanks. Care to opine on why dissect is pronounced di-ssect, not dis-sect? Any such rule at work here?

    – aabeba
    7 hours ago






  • 4





    @aabeba Dissect can be pronounced either way, and the short vowel is the original; the diphthongal pronunciation presumably came about due to influence from other words with the /daɪ-/ pronunciation. The prefix dis- (short vowel) in both Latin and Greek became dī- (long vowel) before some voiced consonants, which created side-forms with long and short vowels. The long vowel was diphthongised as part of the Great Vowel Shift in English, leaving two identical prefixes pronounced quite differently; it’s not surprisingly that some confusion would ensue.

    – Janus Bahs Jacquet
    7 hours ago








  • 3





    Slightly off-topic, but along the same lines: we break helicopter as heli-copter, when helico-pter would be truer to the Greek etymology.

    – gspr
    7 hours ago













  • Yes, helicopter is an interesting one. I suppose you can imitate the source tongue to only a degree before you are forced to yield to physiological and practical limitations.

    – aabeba
    7 hours ago






  • 3





    @aabeba It's not a physiological or practical limitation, because presumably Greek native speakers would have been fine with that syllabication; it has to do with our phonotactics.

    – Azor Ahai
    2 hours ago

















Thanks. Care to opine on why dissect is pronounced di-ssect, not dis-sect? Any such rule at work here?

– aabeba
7 hours ago





Thanks. Care to opine on why dissect is pronounced di-ssect, not dis-sect? Any such rule at work here?

– aabeba
7 hours ago




4




4





@aabeba Dissect can be pronounced either way, and the short vowel is the original; the diphthongal pronunciation presumably came about due to influence from other words with the /daɪ-/ pronunciation. The prefix dis- (short vowel) in both Latin and Greek became dī- (long vowel) before some voiced consonants, which created side-forms with long and short vowels. The long vowel was diphthongised as part of the Great Vowel Shift in English, leaving two identical prefixes pronounced quite differently; it’s not surprisingly that some confusion would ensue.

– Janus Bahs Jacquet
7 hours ago







@aabeba Dissect can be pronounced either way, and the short vowel is the original; the diphthongal pronunciation presumably came about due to influence from other words with the /daɪ-/ pronunciation. The prefix dis- (short vowel) in both Latin and Greek became dī- (long vowel) before some voiced consonants, which created side-forms with long and short vowels. The long vowel was diphthongised as part of the Great Vowel Shift in English, leaving two identical prefixes pronounced quite differently; it’s not surprisingly that some confusion would ensue.

– Janus Bahs Jacquet
7 hours ago






3




3





Slightly off-topic, but along the same lines: we break helicopter as heli-copter, when helico-pter would be truer to the Greek etymology.

– gspr
7 hours ago







Slightly off-topic, but along the same lines: we break helicopter as heli-copter, when helico-pter would be truer to the Greek etymology.

– gspr
7 hours ago















Yes, helicopter is an interesting one. I suppose you can imitate the source tongue to only a degree before you are forced to yield to physiological and practical limitations.

– aabeba
7 hours ago





Yes, helicopter is an interesting one. I suppose you can imitate the source tongue to only a degree before you are forced to yield to physiological and practical limitations.

– aabeba
7 hours ago




3




3





@aabeba It's not a physiological or practical limitation, because presumably Greek native speakers would have been fine with that syllabication; it has to do with our phonotactics.

– Azor Ahai
2 hours ago





@aabeba It's not a physiological or practical limitation, because presumably Greek native speakers would have been fine with that syllabication; it has to do with our phonotactics.

– Azor Ahai
2 hours ago













3














In words from Greek or Latin, a single vowel letter before a consonant cluster that cannot1 occur at the start of a word tends to take its "short"2 pronunciation. The consonant cluster in the middle of "diphthong" cannot come at the start of a word (whether you pronounce it as /fθ/ or as /pθ/), so the "i" in the first syllable is pronounced as /ɪ/.



The converse is not true: before a consonant cluster that can start a word, a single vowel letter may either be "short" or "long". For example, "diploid" is pronounced with /ɪ/ even though there are words that start with /pl/.



As Peter Shor mentioned, the criterion can also be formulated in terms of syllabification. An "open" syllable ends in a vowel, and a "closed" syllable ends in a consonant. In general, we can say that non-final closed syllables in English tend not to have "long vowel" sounds, although that isn't a firm rule of English phonotactics: there are words like "paraleipsis", where the penultimate syllable is closed and pronounced /laɪp/. This is why I included spelling in the rule that I gave at the start of this answer: it would be possible to have a word pronounced /ˈdaɪfθɒŋ/ or /ˈdaɪpθɒŋ/, but it wouldn't be expected to be spelled with diphth-.



There are different approaches to syllabification, but one commonly used criterion says that a consonant cluster can start a syllable only if it can start a word. This criterion implies that consonant clusters that cannot1 occur at the start of a word like /fθ/ always cause the preceding syllable to be closed. Consonant clusters that can occur at the start of a word, like /pl/, would typically be expected to form a syllable onset when the occur word-medially, but some people would argue that the use of /ɪ/ in the first syllable of "diploid" implies the syllabification dip.loid. It's unclear why diploid would be syllabified differently from diglot.






  1. According to the phonotactic rules for typical English words. Exceptions like some people's pronunciation of "phthalate" do not count. Incidentally, some people pronounce words like "psychic" with /ps/, but /ps/ also does not count as "a consonant cluster that can occur at the start of a word" for the purposes of this rule.


  2. "Short" in the phonological, not the phonetic sense: short a e i o u are the phonemes /æ ɛ ɪ ɒ ʌ/. (In American English, /ɑ/ is used instead of /ɒ/.) An alternative term that has been used is "lax".







share|improve this answer


























  • Phonotactics, eh? Are these firm rules, or merely guidelines that indicate which consonant clusters "should be" impossible for natives of a language to pronounce? Is there a descriptivist front I can sign up for to push for a more progressive English language phonetic system?

    – aabeba
    7 hours ago






  • 1





    The consonant cluster /fθ/ can absolutely appear at the beginning of a word, at least to some people: phthalate/phthalic begins with it, as do phthisis (if you don’t pronounce it /ˈtaɪsɪs/, that is) and the perhaps rather recondite Phthiraptera.

    – Janus Bahs Jacquet
    7 hours ago











  • But not, say, /pt,/ or /pht/? Pteranodon and pterodactyl, come to mind. And is there any reason initial /ks/ (xylophone, Xerox) still clings to that pesky French 'z' sound?

    – aabeba
    6 hours ago











  • @aabeba: But isn't the French gzeelofon?

    – Peter Shor
    38 mins ago











  • @aabeba: The spelling-based "rules" that I talk about in this answer are mostly based on the phonotactics of certain historical stages of English. They aren't necessarily linked to whether English speakers find it impossible to pronounce certain sequences of sounds.

    – sumelic
    35 mins ago


















3














In words from Greek or Latin, a single vowel letter before a consonant cluster that cannot1 occur at the start of a word tends to take its "short"2 pronunciation. The consonant cluster in the middle of "diphthong" cannot come at the start of a word (whether you pronounce it as /fθ/ or as /pθ/), so the "i" in the first syllable is pronounced as /ɪ/.



The converse is not true: before a consonant cluster that can start a word, a single vowel letter may either be "short" or "long". For example, "diploid" is pronounced with /ɪ/ even though there are words that start with /pl/.



As Peter Shor mentioned, the criterion can also be formulated in terms of syllabification. An "open" syllable ends in a vowel, and a "closed" syllable ends in a consonant. In general, we can say that non-final closed syllables in English tend not to have "long vowel" sounds, although that isn't a firm rule of English phonotactics: there are words like "paraleipsis", where the penultimate syllable is closed and pronounced /laɪp/. This is why I included spelling in the rule that I gave at the start of this answer: it would be possible to have a word pronounced /ˈdaɪfθɒŋ/ or /ˈdaɪpθɒŋ/, but it wouldn't be expected to be spelled with diphth-.



There are different approaches to syllabification, but one commonly used criterion says that a consonant cluster can start a syllable only if it can start a word. This criterion implies that consonant clusters that cannot1 occur at the start of a word like /fθ/ always cause the preceding syllable to be closed. Consonant clusters that can occur at the start of a word, like /pl/, would typically be expected to form a syllable onset when the occur word-medially, but some people would argue that the use of /ɪ/ in the first syllable of "diploid" implies the syllabification dip.loid. It's unclear why diploid would be syllabified differently from diglot.






  1. According to the phonotactic rules for typical English words. Exceptions like some people's pronunciation of "phthalate" do not count. Incidentally, some people pronounce words like "psychic" with /ps/, but /ps/ also does not count as "a consonant cluster that can occur at the start of a word" for the purposes of this rule.


  2. "Short" in the phonological, not the phonetic sense: short a e i o u are the phonemes /æ ɛ ɪ ɒ ʌ/. (In American English, /ɑ/ is used instead of /ɒ/.) An alternative term that has been used is "lax".







share|improve this answer


























  • Phonotactics, eh? Are these firm rules, or merely guidelines that indicate which consonant clusters "should be" impossible for natives of a language to pronounce? Is there a descriptivist front I can sign up for to push for a more progressive English language phonetic system?

    – aabeba
    7 hours ago






  • 1





    The consonant cluster /fθ/ can absolutely appear at the beginning of a word, at least to some people: phthalate/phthalic begins with it, as do phthisis (if you don’t pronounce it /ˈtaɪsɪs/, that is) and the perhaps rather recondite Phthiraptera.

    – Janus Bahs Jacquet
    7 hours ago











  • But not, say, /pt,/ or /pht/? Pteranodon and pterodactyl, come to mind. And is there any reason initial /ks/ (xylophone, Xerox) still clings to that pesky French 'z' sound?

    – aabeba
    6 hours ago











  • @aabeba: But isn't the French gzeelofon?

    – Peter Shor
    38 mins ago











  • @aabeba: The spelling-based "rules" that I talk about in this answer are mostly based on the phonotactics of certain historical stages of English. They aren't necessarily linked to whether English speakers find it impossible to pronounce certain sequences of sounds.

    – sumelic
    35 mins ago
















3












3








3







In words from Greek or Latin, a single vowel letter before a consonant cluster that cannot1 occur at the start of a word tends to take its "short"2 pronunciation. The consonant cluster in the middle of "diphthong" cannot come at the start of a word (whether you pronounce it as /fθ/ or as /pθ/), so the "i" in the first syllable is pronounced as /ɪ/.



The converse is not true: before a consonant cluster that can start a word, a single vowel letter may either be "short" or "long". For example, "diploid" is pronounced with /ɪ/ even though there are words that start with /pl/.



As Peter Shor mentioned, the criterion can also be formulated in terms of syllabification. An "open" syllable ends in a vowel, and a "closed" syllable ends in a consonant. In general, we can say that non-final closed syllables in English tend not to have "long vowel" sounds, although that isn't a firm rule of English phonotactics: there are words like "paraleipsis", where the penultimate syllable is closed and pronounced /laɪp/. This is why I included spelling in the rule that I gave at the start of this answer: it would be possible to have a word pronounced /ˈdaɪfθɒŋ/ or /ˈdaɪpθɒŋ/, but it wouldn't be expected to be spelled with diphth-.



There are different approaches to syllabification, but one commonly used criterion says that a consonant cluster can start a syllable only if it can start a word. This criterion implies that consonant clusters that cannot1 occur at the start of a word like /fθ/ always cause the preceding syllable to be closed. Consonant clusters that can occur at the start of a word, like /pl/, would typically be expected to form a syllable onset when the occur word-medially, but some people would argue that the use of /ɪ/ in the first syllable of "diploid" implies the syllabification dip.loid. It's unclear why diploid would be syllabified differently from diglot.






  1. According to the phonotactic rules for typical English words. Exceptions like some people's pronunciation of "phthalate" do not count. Incidentally, some people pronounce words like "psychic" with /ps/, but /ps/ also does not count as "a consonant cluster that can occur at the start of a word" for the purposes of this rule.


  2. "Short" in the phonological, not the phonetic sense: short a e i o u are the phonemes /æ ɛ ɪ ɒ ʌ/. (In American English, /ɑ/ is used instead of /ɒ/.) An alternative term that has been used is "lax".







share|improve this answer















In words from Greek or Latin, a single vowel letter before a consonant cluster that cannot1 occur at the start of a word tends to take its "short"2 pronunciation. The consonant cluster in the middle of "diphthong" cannot come at the start of a word (whether you pronounce it as /fθ/ or as /pθ/), so the "i" in the first syllable is pronounced as /ɪ/.



The converse is not true: before a consonant cluster that can start a word, a single vowel letter may either be "short" or "long". For example, "diploid" is pronounced with /ɪ/ even though there are words that start with /pl/.



As Peter Shor mentioned, the criterion can also be formulated in terms of syllabification. An "open" syllable ends in a vowel, and a "closed" syllable ends in a consonant. In general, we can say that non-final closed syllables in English tend not to have "long vowel" sounds, although that isn't a firm rule of English phonotactics: there are words like "paraleipsis", where the penultimate syllable is closed and pronounced /laɪp/. This is why I included spelling in the rule that I gave at the start of this answer: it would be possible to have a word pronounced /ˈdaɪfθɒŋ/ or /ˈdaɪpθɒŋ/, but it wouldn't be expected to be spelled with diphth-.



There are different approaches to syllabification, but one commonly used criterion says that a consonant cluster can start a syllable only if it can start a word. This criterion implies that consonant clusters that cannot1 occur at the start of a word like /fθ/ always cause the preceding syllable to be closed. Consonant clusters that can occur at the start of a word, like /pl/, would typically be expected to form a syllable onset when the occur word-medially, but some people would argue that the use of /ɪ/ in the first syllable of "diploid" implies the syllabification dip.loid. It's unclear why diploid would be syllabified differently from diglot.






  1. According to the phonotactic rules for typical English words. Exceptions like some people's pronunciation of "phthalate" do not count. Incidentally, some people pronounce words like "psychic" with /ps/, but /ps/ also does not count as "a consonant cluster that can occur at the start of a word" for the purposes of this rule.


  2. "Short" in the phonological, not the phonetic sense: short a e i o u are the phonemes /æ ɛ ɪ ɒ ʌ/. (In American English, /ɑ/ is used instead of /ɒ/.) An alternative term that has been used is "lax".








share|improve this answer














share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer








edited 1 hour ago

























answered 10 hours ago









sumelicsumelic

49k8116221




49k8116221













  • Phonotactics, eh? Are these firm rules, or merely guidelines that indicate which consonant clusters "should be" impossible for natives of a language to pronounce? Is there a descriptivist front I can sign up for to push for a more progressive English language phonetic system?

    – aabeba
    7 hours ago






  • 1





    The consonant cluster /fθ/ can absolutely appear at the beginning of a word, at least to some people: phthalate/phthalic begins with it, as do phthisis (if you don’t pronounce it /ˈtaɪsɪs/, that is) and the perhaps rather recondite Phthiraptera.

    – Janus Bahs Jacquet
    7 hours ago











  • But not, say, /pt,/ or /pht/? Pteranodon and pterodactyl, come to mind. And is there any reason initial /ks/ (xylophone, Xerox) still clings to that pesky French 'z' sound?

    – aabeba
    6 hours ago











  • @aabeba: But isn't the French gzeelofon?

    – Peter Shor
    38 mins ago











  • @aabeba: The spelling-based "rules" that I talk about in this answer are mostly based on the phonotactics of certain historical stages of English. They aren't necessarily linked to whether English speakers find it impossible to pronounce certain sequences of sounds.

    – sumelic
    35 mins ago





















  • Phonotactics, eh? Are these firm rules, or merely guidelines that indicate which consonant clusters "should be" impossible for natives of a language to pronounce? Is there a descriptivist front I can sign up for to push for a more progressive English language phonetic system?

    – aabeba
    7 hours ago






  • 1





    The consonant cluster /fθ/ can absolutely appear at the beginning of a word, at least to some people: phthalate/phthalic begins with it, as do phthisis (if you don’t pronounce it /ˈtaɪsɪs/, that is) and the perhaps rather recondite Phthiraptera.

    – Janus Bahs Jacquet
    7 hours ago











  • But not, say, /pt,/ or /pht/? Pteranodon and pterodactyl, come to mind. And is there any reason initial /ks/ (xylophone, Xerox) still clings to that pesky French 'z' sound?

    – aabeba
    6 hours ago











  • @aabeba: But isn't the French gzeelofon?

    – Peter Shor
    38 mins ago











  • @aabeba: The spelling-based "rules" that I talk about in this answer are mostly based on the phonotactics of certain historical stages of English. They aren't necessarily linked to whether English speakers find it impossible to pronounce certain sequences of sounds.

    – sumelic
    35 mins ago



















Phonotactics, eh? Are these firm rules, or merely guidelines that indicate which consonant clusters "should be" impossible for natives of a language to pronounce? Is there a descriptivist front I can sign up for to push for a more progressive English language phonetic system?

– aabeba
7 hours ago





Phonotactics, eh? Are these firm rules, or merely guidelines that indicate which consonant clusters "should be" impossible for natives of a language to pronounce? Is there a descriptivist front I can sign up for to push for a more progressive English language phonetic system?

– aabeba
7 hours ago




1




1





The consonant cluster /fθ/ can absolutely appear at the beginning of a word, at least to some people: phthalate/phthalic begins with it, as do phthisis (if you don’t pronounce it /ˈtaɪsɪs/, that is) and the perhaps rather recondite Phthiraptera.

– Janus Bahs Jacquet
7 hours ago





The consonant cluster /fθ/ can absolutely appear at the beginning of a word, at least to some people: phthalate/phthalic begins with it, as do phthisis (if you don’t pronounce it /ˈtaɪsɪs/, that is) and the perhaps rather recondite Phthiraptera.

– Janus Bahs Jacquet
7 hours ago













But not, say, /pt,/ or /pht/? Pteranodon and pterodactyl, come to mind. And is there any reason initial /ks/ (xylophone, Xerox) still clings to that pesky French 'z' sound?

– aabeba
6 hours ago





But not, say, /pt,/ or /pht/? Pteranodon and pterodactyl, come to mind. And is there any reason initial /ks/ (xylophone, Xerox) still clings to that pesky French 'z' sound?

– aabeba
6 hours ago













@aabeba: But isn't the French gzeelofon?

– Peter Shor
38 mins ago





@aabeba: But isn't the French gzeelofon?

– Peter Shor
38 mins ago













@aabeba: The spelling-based "rules" that I talk about in this answer are mostly based on the phonotactics of certain historical stages of English. They aren't necessarily linked to whether English speakers find it impossible to pronounce certain sequences of sounds.

– sumelic
35 mins ago







@aabeba: The spelling-based "rules" that I talk about in this answer are mostly based on the phonotactics of certain historical stages of English. They aren't necessarily linked to whether English speakers find it impossible to pronounce certain sequences of sounds.

– sumelic
35 mins ago













0














φθόγγος, diphthongs [this program will not show the lower case φ]



The φ [or lower case version which I can't get here] was sound PH is Ancient Greek.



It started being pronounced as "an aspirated voiceless bilabial plosive, which was the origin of its usual romanization as ." [phytoplankton] [Wikipedia] That is: fee



In modern Greek you get the f sound: dif-thongos where th is theta and i is like ee is fee. (Sorry, can't do the phonemic rendition).



The syllabification in Greek is: δίφ-θόγγος [deef-thongos]but the pronunciation in English is: dip-thong. And the Greek ph as f sound disappears. Only the spelling remains, like the Cheshire Cat's grin. There is no f sound in English in the English pronunciation of the Greek "transliterated" spelling.






share|improve this answer
























  • "Diphthong" may be pronounced in English with either /fθ/ or /pθ/. Dictionaries list both pronunciations.

    – sumelic
    1 hour ago
















0














φθόγγος, diphthongs [this program will not show the lower case φ]



The φ [or lower case version which I can't get here] was sound PH is Ancient Greek.



It started being pronounced as "an aspirated voiceless bilabial plosive, which was the origin of its usual romanization as ." [phytoplankton] [Wikipedia] That is: fee



In modern Greek you get the f sound: dif-thongos where th is theta and i is like ee is fee. (Sorry, can't do the phonemic rendition).



The syllabification in Greek is: δίφ-θόγγος [deef-thongos]but the pronunciation in English is: dip-thong. And the Greek ph as f sound disappears. Only the spelling remains, like the Cheshire Cat's grin. There is no f sound in English in the English pronunciation of the Greek "transliterated" spelling.






share|improve this answer
























  • "Diphthong" may be pronounced in English with either /fθ/ or /pθ/. Dictionaries list both pronunciations.

    – sumelic
    1 hour ago














0












0








0







φθόγγος, diphthongs [this program will not show the lower case φ]



The φ [or lower case version which I can't get here] was sound PH is Ancient Greek.



It started being pronounced as "an aspirated voiceless bilabial plosive, which was the origin of its usual romanization as ." [phytoplankton] [Wikipedia] That is: fee



In modern Greek you get the f sound: dif-thongos where th is theta and i is like ee is fee. (Sorry, can't do the phonemic rendition).



The syllabification in Greek is: δίφ-θόγγος [deef-thongos]but the pronunciation in English is: dip-thong. And the Greek ph as f sound disappears. Only the spelling remains, like the Cheshire Cat's grin. There is no f sound in English in the English pronunciation of the Greek "transliterated" spelling.






share|improve this answer













φθόγγος, diphthongs [this program will not show the lower case φ]



The φ [or lower case version which I can't get here] was sound PH is Ancient Greek.



It started being pronounced as "an aspirated voiceless bilabial plosive, which was the origin of its usual romanization as ." [phytoplankton] [Wikipedia] That is: fee



In modern Greek you get the f sound: dif-thongos where th is theta and i is like ee is fee. (Sorry, can't do the phonemic rendition).



The syllabification in Greek is: δίφ-θόγγος [deef-thongos]but the pronunciation in English is: dip-thong. And the Greek ph as f sound disappears. Only the spelling remains, like the Cheshire Cat's grin. There is no f sound in English in the English pronunciation of the Greek "transliterated" spelling.







share|improve this answer












share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer










answered 1 hour ago









LambieLambie

7,4451931




7,4451931













  • "Diphthong" may be pronounced in English with either /fθ/ or /pθ/. Dictionaries list both pronunciations.

    – sumelic
    1 hour ago



















  • "Diphthong" may be pronounced in English with either /fθ/ or /pθ/. Dictionaries list both pronunciations.

    – sumelic
    1 hour ago

















"Diphthong" may be pronounced in English with either /fθ/ or /pθ/. Dictionaries list both pronunciations.

– sumelic
1 hour ago





"Diphthong" may be pronounced in English with either /fθ/ or /pθ/. Dictionaries list both pronunciations.

– sumelic
1 hour ago











-1














Words that do not originate in English does not necessarily follow English pronunciation rules, And diphthong is no difference as well.



Look at the word dilemma - It is pronounced with dih instead of dahy.
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/dilemma?s=t



Now look at the verb divulse - it is pronounces with dahy
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/divulse?s=t



But the noun divulsion is pronounced with a dih



https://www.dictionary.com/browse/divulsion?s=t






share|improve this answer



















  • 2





    Actually, dilemma can be pronounced both ways.

    – Kate Bunting
    9 hours ago






  • 1





    What language is this "dahy" pronunciation? It certainly isn't British English.

    – alephzero
    8 hours ago











  • @alephzero Silent h.

    – Mr Lister
    8 hours ago











  • @alephzero American English, surely?

    – aabeba
    7 hours ago






  • 1





    @TylerH that’s the one I mean—“die-lemma”.

    – aabeba
    2 hours ago
















-1














Words that do not originate in English does not necessarily follow English pronunciation rules, And diphthong is no difference as well.



Look at the word dilemma - It is pronounced with dih instead of dahy.
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/dilemma?s=t



Now look at the verb divulse - it is pronounces with dahy
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/divulse?s=t



But the noun divulsion is pronounced with a dih



https://www.dictionary.com/browse/divulsion?s=t






share|improve this answer



















  • 2





    Actually, dilemma can be pronounced both ways.

    – Kate Bunting
    9 hours ago






  • 1





    What language is this "dahy" pronunciation? It certainly isn't British English.

    – alephzero
    8 hours ago











  • @alephzero Silent h.

    – Mr Lister
    8 hours ago











  • @alephzero American English, surely?

    – aabeba
    7 hours ago






  • 1





    @TylerH that’s the one I mean—“die-lemma”.

    – aabeba
    2 hours ago














-1












-1








-1







Words that do not originate in English does not necessarily follow English pronunciation rules, And diphthong is no difference as well.



Look at the word dilemma - It is pronounced with dih instead of dahy.
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/dilemma?s=t



Now look at the verb divulse - it is pronounces with dahy
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/divulse?s=t



But the noun divulsion is pronounced with a dih



https://www.dictionary.com/browse/divulsion?s=t






share|improve this answer













Words that do not originate in English does not necessarily follow English pronunciation rules, And diphthong is no difference as well.



Look at the word dilemma - It is pronounced with dih instead of dahy.
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/dilemma?s=t



Now look at the verb divulse - it is pronounces with dahy
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/divulse?s=t



But the noun divulsion is pronounced with a dih



https://www.dictionary.com/browse/divulsion?s=t







share|improve this answer












share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer










answered 10 hours ago









Uhtred RagnarssonUhtred Ragnarsson

45926




45926








  • 2





    Actually, dilemma can be pronounced both ways.

    – Kate Bunting
    9 hours ago






  • 1





    What language is this "dahy" pronunciation? It certainly isn't British English.

    – alephzero
    8 hours ago











  • @alephzero Silent h.

    – Mr Lister
    8 hours ago











  • @alephzero American English, surely?

    – aabeba
    7 hours ago






  • 1





    @TylerH that’s the one I mean—“die-lemma”.

    – aabeba
    2 hours ago














  • 2





    Actually, dilemma can be pronounced both ways.

    – Kate Bunting
    9 hours ago






  • 1





    What language is this "dahy" pronunciation? It certainly isn't British English.

    – alephzero
    8 hours ago











  • @alephzero Silent h.

    – Mr Lister
    8 hours ago











  • @alephzero American English, surely?

    – aabeba
    7 hours ago






  • 1





    @TylerH that’s the one I mean—“die-lemma”.

    – aabeba
    2 hours ago








2




2





Actually, dilemma can be pronounced both ways.

– Kate Bunting
9 hours ago





Actually, dilemma can be pronounced both ways.

– Kate Bunting
9 hours ago




1




1





What language is this "dahy" pronunciation? It certainly isn't British English.

– alephzero
8 hours ago





What language is this "dahy" pronunciation? It certainly isn't British English.

– alephzero
8 hours ago













@alephzero Silent h.

– Mr Lister
8 hours ago





@alephzero Silent h.

– Mr Lister
8 hours ago













@alephzero American English, surely?

– aabeba
7 hours ago





@alephzero American English, surely?

– aabeba
7 hours ago




1




1





@TylerH that’s the one I mean—“die-lemma”.

– aabeba
2 hours ago





@TylerH that’s the one I mean—“die-lemma”.

– aabeba
2 hours ago










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aabeba is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.













aabeba is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.












aabeba is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
















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