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Why is that max-Q doesn't occur in transonic regime?


How much bigger could Earth be, before rockets would't work?What is the typical mach number at which the peak dynamic pressure occurs?Is it possible to calculate Max-Q without having to input an altitudeWhy are Europe’s Air & Space Academy and DLR urging ESA and CNES to reconsider the use of solid fuels for the proposed Ariane 6?Why are there no more Delta II rockets?SpaceX Falcon 9 landing leg deployment timeWhat's the first recorded use of a countdown associated with a rocket launch?Can planet Earthtoo put a Tooian in orbit too?Why do some rockets not ignite all their engines during liftoff? (GSLV MK3 LV)Why is (conventional) ramjet not used for 2nd stage of rocket propulsion?Why are some rockets orange?Understanding Coefficient of Drag Verses Mach Number for Launch VehiclesWhy rockets are not tossed up before launch













6












$begingroup$


Is there any reason why the maximum dynamic pressure should not occur in the transonic regime.
It is clear from this answer that the max-Q for various rockets occur outside the transonic region



Do the rocket scientists design the launch in a way that the max-Q always occur outside transonic region?










share|improve this question











$endgroup$

















    6












    $begingroup$


    Is there any reason why the maximum dynamic pressure should not occur in the transonic regime.
    It is clear from this answer that the max-Q for various rockets occur outside the transonic region



    Do the rocket scientists design the launch in a way that the max-Q always occur outside transonic region?










    share|improve this question











    $endgroup$















      6












      6








      6





      $begingroup$


      Is there any reason why the maximum dynamic pressure should not occur in the transonic regime.
      It is clear from this answer that the max-Q for various rockets occur outside the transonic region



      Do the rocket scientists design the launch in a way that the max-Q always occur outside transonic region?










      share|improve this question











      $endgroup$




      Is there any reason why the maximum dynamic pressure should not occur in the transonic regime.
      It is clear from this answer that the max-Q for various rockets occur outside the transonic region



      Do the rocket scientists design the launch in a way that the max-Q always occur outside transonic region?







      rockets mission-design






      share|improve this question















      share|improve this question













      share|improve this question




      share|improve this question








      edited 2 hours ago









      peterh

      1,93111531




      1,93111531










      asked 5 hours ago









      Vasanth CVasanth C

      558112




      558112






















          3 Answers
          3






          active

          oldest

          votes


















          8












          $begingroup$

          Max-Q is a function of both altitude and velocity. There isn't any reason in particular that it needs to fall at a particular Mach number. It's just the point at which the rate that atmospheric density is falling outpaces the rate at which the square of the velocity is increasing. Nothing more.






          share|improve this answer









          $endgroup$





















            3












            $begingroup$

            Here's a very simple model of a Faux Falcon 9 launched vertically, with no turn towards horizontal. That doesn't matter so much at the altitude at max-Q but the final altitude at MECO is higher than in the videos because it hasn't turned towards horizontal. There are several simplifications, but it should reproduce most things in a qualitative way.



            The final velocity is a little high but that may be related to the model not throttling back near max Q, or to other approximations.



            I chose a scale height model for density $rho(h) = rho_0 exp(-h/h_{scale})$ and a trans-sonic drag coefficient $C_D$ of 0.6 (from here) which matters mostly near mach 1 when max-Q is happening. I assumed the first stage fuel is 70% of the total launch mass of 550,000 kg.



            Answer: Max-Q happens around mach 1 because the Earth's atmosphere and gravity and structural materials are what they are. Rockets are designed to make due with our atmosphere and gravity to get the most mass to orbit or beyond, with the caveat that they don't fall apart under crushing forces at max-Q.



            If we lived on a planet with a lower surface pressure, it would happen earlier. If we lived on planet with different mass or diameter, that would affect both gravity on the rocket and the scale height, and max-Q would also happen earlier or later.



            Luckily we don't live here!



            Faux Falcon-9 FT launched vertically



            def deriv(X, t):
            h, v = X
            acc_g = -GMe / (h + Re)**2
            m = m0 - mdot * t
            acc_t = vex * mdot / m
            rho = rho0 * np.exp(-h/h_scale)
            acc_d = -0.5 * rho * v**2 * CD * A / m
            return [v, acc_g + acc_t + acc_d]

            import numpy as np
            import matplotlib.pyplot as plt
            from scipy.integrate import odeint as ODEint

            Re = 6378137. # meters
            GMe = 3.986E+14 # m^3/s^2
            rho0 = 1.3 # kg/m3
            h_scale = 8500. # meters

            # faux falcon-9 FT
            vex = 3600. # m/s
            tburn = 160. # sec
            m0 = 550000. # kg
            mdot = m0 * 0.70 / tburn # kg/s
            CD = 0.6
            A = np.pi * (0.5*3.66)**2 # m^2

            times = np.arange(0, tburn+1, 1) # sec
            X0 = np.zeros(2) # initial state vector

            answer, info = ODEint(deriv, X0, times, full_output=True)

            h, v = answer.T
            hkm = 0.001 * h
            vkph = 3.6 * v
            mach = v / 330. # roughly
            rho = rho0 * np.exp(-h/h_scale)
            Q = 0.5 * rho * v**2

            if True:
            plt.figure()
            plt.subplot(2, 2, 1)
            things = (hkm, vkph, mach, rho, Q)
            names = ('height (km)', 'velocity (km/h)', 'mach', 'density (kg/m^3)', 'Q')
            for i, (thing, name) in enumerate(zip(things, names)):
            plt.subplot(5, 1, i+1)
            plt.plot(times, thing)
            if i == 2:
            plt.ylim(0, 3)
            plt.plot(times, np.ones_like(times), '-k')
            llim, ulim = plt.ylim()
            plt.text(5, 0.7*ulim, name)
            plt.xlabel('time (sec)', fontsize=16)
            plt.show()





            share|improve this answer











            $endgroup$





















              0












              $begingroup$

              No. Rockets need to be optimized for various, contradicting requirements:




              1. Minimal mass of the hull ($rightarrow$ should be so weak as possible)

              2. Aerodynamics of the hull in sub-sonical regime

              3. Aerodynamics of the hull in supersonical regime (very different from the sub-sonical aerodynamics)

              4. Minimal gravity loss ($rightarrow$ it needs to get to orbit quickly)

              5. Minimal aerodynamical loss ($rightarrow$ should not fly too quickly in dense athmosphere)


              The planned trajectory of the vehicle is a compromise between them.



              There is no direct reason to close out a sub-sonical max-Q. It simply didn't happen on engineering optimization reasons until now.






              share|improve this answer









              $endgroup$













                Your Answer





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                3 Answers
                3






                active

                oldest

                votes








                3 Answers
                3






                active

                oldest

                votes









                active

                oldest

                votes






                active

                oldest

                votes









                8












                $begingroup$

                Max-Q is a function of both altitude and velocity. There isn't any reason in particular that it needs to fall at a particular Mach number. It's just the point at which the rate that atmospheric density is falling outpaces the rate at which the square of the velocity is increasing. Nothing more.






                share|improve this answer









                $endgroup$


















                  8












                  $begingroup$

                  Max-Q is a function of both altitude and velocity. There isn't any reason in particular that it needs to fall at a particular Mach number. It's just the point at which the rate that atmospheric density is falling outpaces the rate at which the square of the velocity is increasing. Nothing more.






                  share|improve this answer









                  $endgroup$
















                    8












                    8








                    8





                    $begingroup$

                    Max-Q is a function of both altitude and velocity. There isn't any reason in particular that it needs to fall at a particular Mach number. It's just the point at which the rate that atmospheric density is falling outpaces the rate at which the square of the velocity is increasing. Nothing more.






                    share|improve this answer









                    $endgroup$



                    Max-Q is a function of both altitude and velocity. There isn't any reason in particular that it needs to fall at a particular Mach number. It's just the point at which the rate that atmospheric density is falling outpaces the rate at which the square of the velocity is increasing. Nothing more.







                    share|improve this answer












                    share|improve this answer



                    share|improve this answer










                    answered 4 hours ago









                    TristanTristan

                    10.5k13654




                    10.5k13654























                        3












                        $begingroup$

                        Here's a very simple model of a Faux Falcon 9 launched vertically, with no turn towards horizontal. That doesn't matter so much at the altitude at max-Q but the final altitude at MECO is higher than in the videos because it hasn't turned towards horizontal. There are several simplifications, but it should reproduce most things in a qualitative way.



                        The final velocity is a little high but that may be related to the model not throttling back near max Q, or to other approximations.



                        I chose a scale height model for density $rho(h) = rho_0 exp(-h/h_{scale})$ and a trans-sonic drag coefficient $C_D$ of 0.6 (from here) which matters mostly near mach 1 when max-Q is happening. I assumed the first stage fuel is 70% of the total launch mass of 550,000 kg.



                        Answer: Max-Q happens around mach 1 because the Earth's atmosphere and gravity and structural materials are what they are. Rockets are designed to make due with our atmosphere and gravity to get the most mass to orbit or beyond, with the caveat that they don't fall apart under crushing forces at max-Q.



                        If we lived on a planet with a lower surface pressure, it would happen earlier. If we lived on planet with different mass or diameter, that would affect both gravity on the rocket and the scale height, and max-Q would also happen earlier or later.



                        Luckily we don't live here!



                        Faux Falcon-9 FT launched vertically



                        def deriv(X, t):
                        h, v = X
                        acc_g = -GMe / (h + Re)**2
                        m = m0 - mdot * t
                        acc_t = vex * mdot / m
                        rho = rho0 * np.exp(-h/h_scale)
                        acc_d = -0.5 * rho * v**2 * CD * A / m
                        return [v, acc_g + acc_t + acc_d]

                        import numpy as np
                        import matplotlib.pyplot as plt
                        from scipy.integrate import odeint as ODEint

                        Re = 6378137. # meters
                        GMe = 3.986E+14 # m^3/s^2
                        rho0 = 1.3 # kg/m3
                        h_scale = 8500. # meters

                        # faux falcon-9 FT
                        vex = 3600. # m/s
                        tburn = 160. # sec
                        m0 = 550000. # kg
                        mdot = m0 * 0.70 / tburn # kg/s
                        CD = 0.6
                        A = np.pi * (0.5*3.66)**2 # m^2

                        times = np.arange(0, tburn+1, 1) # sec
                        X0 = np.zeros(2) # initial state vector

                        answer, info = ODEint(deriv, X0, times, full_output=True)

                        h, v = answer.T
                        hkm = 0.001 * h
                        vkph = 3.6 * v
                        mach = v / 330. # roughly
                        rho = rho0 * np.exp(-h/h_scale)
                        Q = 0.5 * rho * v**2

                        if True:
                        plt.figure()
                        plt.subplot(2, 2, 1)
                        things = (hkm, vkph, mach, rho, Q)
                        names = ('height (km)', 'velocity (km/h)', 'mach', 'density (kg/m^3)', 'Q')
                        for i, (thing, name) in enumerate(zip(things, names)):
                        plt.subplot(5, 1, i+1)
                        plt.plot(times, thing)
                        if i == 2:
                        plt.ylim(0, 3)
                        plt.plot(times, np.ones_like(times), '-k')
                        llim, ulim = plt.ylim()
                        plt.text(5, 0.7*ulim, name)
                        plt.xlabel('time (sec)', fontsize=16)
                        plt.show()





                        share|improve this answer











                        $endgroup$


















                          3












                          $begingroup$

                          Here's a very simple model of a Faux Falcon 9 launched vertically, with no turn towards horizontal. That doesn't matter so much at the altitude at max-Q but the final altitude at MECO is higher than in the videos because it hasn't turned towards horizontal. There are several simplifications, but it should reproduce most things in a qualitative way.



                          The final velocity is a little high but that may be related to the model not throttling back near max Q, or to other approximations.



                          I chose a scale height model for density $rho(h) = rho_0 exp(-h/h_{scale})$ and a trans-sonic drag coefficient $C_D$ of 0.6 (from here) which matters mostly near mach 1 when max-Q is happening. I assumed the first stage fuel is 70% of the total launch mass of 550,000 kg.



                          Answer: Max-Q happens around mach 1 because the Earth's atmosphere and gravity and structural materials are what they are. Rockets are designed to make due with our atmosphere and gravity to get the most mass to orbit or beyond, with the caveat that they don't fall apart under crushing forces at max-Q.



                          If we lived on a planet with a lower surface pressure, it would happen earlier. If we lived on planet with different mass or diameter, that would affect both gravity on the rocket and the scale height, and max-Q would also happen earlier or later.



                          Luckily we don't live here!



                          Faux Falcon-9 FT launched vertically



                          def deriv(X, t):
                          h, v = X
                          acc_g = -GMe / (h + Re)**2
                          m = m0 - mdot * t
                          acc_t = vex * mdot / m
                          rho = rho0 * np.exp(-h/h_scale)
                          acc_d = -0.5 * rho * v**2 * CD * A / m
                          return [v, acc_g + acc_t + acc_d]

                          import numpy as np
                          import matplotlib.pyplot as plt
                          from scipy.integrate import odeint as ODEint

                          Re = 6378137. # meters
                          GMe = 3.986E+14 # m^3/s^2
                          rho0 = 1.3 # kg/m3
                          h_scale = 8500. # meters

                          # faux falcon-9 FT
                          vex = 3600. # m/s
                          tburn = 160. # sec
                          m0 = 550000. # kg
                          mdot = m0 * 0.70 / tburn # kg/s
                          CD = 0.6
                          A = np.pi * (0.5*3.66)**2 # m^2

                          times = np.arange(0, tburn+1, 1) # sec
                          X0 = np.zeros(2) # initial state vector

                          answer, info = ODEint(deriv, X0, times, full_output=True)

                          h, v = answer.T
                          hkm = 0.001 * h
                          vkph = 3.6 * v
                          mach = v / 330. # roughly
                          rho = rho0 * np.exp(-h/h_scale)
                          Q = 0.5 * rho * v**2

                          if True:
                          plt.figure()
                          plt.subplot(2, 2, 1)
                          things = (hkm, vkph, mach, rho, Q)
                          names = ('height (km)', 'velocity (km/h)', 'mach', 'density (kg/m^3)', 'Q')
                          for i, (thing, name) in enumerate(zip(things, names)):
                          plt.subplot(5, 1, i+1)
                          plt.plot(times, thing)
                          if i == 2:
                          plt.ylim(0, 3)
                          plt.plot(times, np.ones_like(times), '-k')
                          llim, ulim = plt.ylim()
                          plt.text(5, 0.7*ulim, name)
                          plt.xlabel('time (sec)', fontsize=16)
                          plt.show()





                          share|improve this answer











                          $endgroup$
















                            3












                            3








                            3





                            $begingroup$

                            Here's a very simple model of a Faux Falcon 9 launched vertically, with no turn towards horizontal. That doesn't matter so much at the altitude at max-Q but the final altitude at MECO is higher than in the videos because it hasn't turned towards horizontal. There are several simplifications, but it should reproduce most things in a qualitative way.



                            The final velocity is a little high but that may be related to the model not throttling back near max Q, or to other approximations.



                            I chose a scale height model for density $rho(h) = rho_0 exp(-h/h_{scale})$ and a trans-sonic drag coefficient $C_D$ of 0.6 (from here) which matters mostly near mach 1 when max-Q is happening. I assumed the first stage fuel is 70% of the total launch mass of 550,000 kg.



                            Answer: Max-Q happens around mach 1 because the Earth's atmosphere and gravity and structural materials are what they are. Rockets are designed to make due with our atmosphere and gravity to get the most mass to orbit or beyond, with the caveat that they don't fall apart under crushing forces at max-Q.



                            If we lived on a planet with a lower surface pressure, it would happen earlier. If we lived on planet with different mass or diameter, that would affect both gravity on the rocket and the scale height, and max-Q would also happen earlier or later.



                            Luckily we don't live here!



                            Faux Falcon-9 FT launched vertically



                            def deriv(X, t):
                            h, v = X
                            acc_g = -GMe / (h + Re)**2
                            m = m0 - mdot * t
                            acc_t = vex * mdot / m
                            rho = rho0 * np.exp(-h/h_scale)
                            acc_d = -0.5 * rho * v**2 * CD * A / m
                            return [v, acc_g + acc_t + acc_d]

                            import numpy as np
                            import matplotlib.pyplot as plt
                            from scipy.integrate import odeint as ODEint

                            Re = 6378137. # meters
                            GMe = 3.986E+14 # m^3/s^2
                            rho0 = 1.3 # kg/m3
                            h_scale = 8500. # meters

                            # faux falcon-9 FT
                            vex = 3600. # m/s
                            tburn = 160. # sec
                            m0 = 550000. # kg
                            mdot = m0 * 0.70 / tburn # kg/s
                            CD = 0.6
                            A = np.pi * (0.5*3.66)**2 # m^2

                            times = np.arange(0, tburn+1, 1) # sec
                            X0 = np.zeros(2) # initial state vector

                            answer, info = ODEint(deriv, X0, times, full_output=True)

                            h, v = answer.T
                            hkm = 0.001 * h
                            vkph = 3.6 * v
                            mach = v / 330. # roughly
                            rho = rho0 * np.exp(-h/h_scale)
                            Q = 0.5 * rho * v**2

                            if True:
                            plt.figure()
                            plt.subplot(2, 2, 1)
                            things = (hkm, vkph, mach, rho, Q)
                            names = ('height (km)', 'velocity (km/h)', 'mach', 'density (kg/m^3)', 'Q')
                            for i, (thing, name) in enumerate(zip(things, names)):
                            plt.subplot(5, 1, i+1)
                            plt.plot(times, thing)
                            if i == 2:
                            plt.ylim(0, 3)
                            plt.plot(times, np.ones_like(times), '-k')
                            llim, ulim = plt.ylim()
                            plt.text(5, 0.7*ulim, name)
                            plt.xlabel('time (sec)', fontsize=16)
                            plt.show()





                            share|improve this answer











                            $endgroup$



                            Here's a very simple model of a Faux Falcon 9 launched vertically, with no turn towards horizontal. That doesn't matter so much at the altitude at max-Q but the final altitude at MECO is higher than in the videos because it hasn't turned towards horizontal. There are several simplifications, but it should reproduce most things in a qualitative way.



                            The final velocity is a little high but that may be related to the model not throttling back near max Q, or to other approximations.



                            I chose a scale height model for density $rho(h) = rho_0 exp(-h/h_{scale})$ and a trans-sonic drag coefficient $C_D$ of 0.6 (from here) which matters mostly near mach 1 when max-Q is happening. I assumed the first stage fuel is 70% of the total launch mass of 550,000 kg.



                            Answer: Max-Q happens around mach 1 because the Earth's atmosphere and gravity and structural materials are what they are. Rockets are designed to make due with our atmosphere and gravity to get the most mass to orbit or beyond, with the caveat that they don't fall apart under crushing forces at max-Q.



                            If we lived on a planet with a lower surface pressure, it would happen earlier. If we lived on planet with different mass or diameter, that would affect both gravity on the rocket and the scale height, and max-Q would also happen earlier or later.



                            Luckily we don't live here!



                            Faux Falcon-9 FT launched vertically



                            def deriv(X, t):
                            h, v = X
                            acc_g = -GMe / (h + Re)**2
                            m = m0 - mdot * t
                            acc_t = vex * mdot / m
                            rho = rho0 * np.exp(-h/h_scale)
                            acc_d = -0.5 * rho * v**2 * CD * A / m
                            return [v, acc_g + acc_t + acc_d]

                            import numpy as np
                            import matplotlib.pyplot as plt
                            from scipy.integrate import odeint as ODEint

                            Re = 6378137. # meters
                            GMe = 3.986E+14 # m^3/s^2
                            rho0 = 1.3 # kg/m3
                            h_scale = 8500. # meters

                            # faux falcon-9 FT
                            vex = 3600. # m/s
                            tburn = 160. # sec
                            m0 = 550000. # kg
                            mdot = m0 * 0.70 / tburn # kg/s
                            CD = 0.6
                            A = np.pi * (0.5*3.66)**2 # m^2

                            times = np.arange(0, tburn+1, 1) # sec
                            X0 = np.zeros(2) # initial state vector

                            answer, info = ODEint(deriv, X0, times, full_output=True)

                            h, v = answer.T
                            hkm = 0.001 * h
                            vkph = 3.6 * v
                            mach = v / 330. # roughly
                            rho = rho0 * np.exp(-h/h_scale)
                            Q = 0.5 * rho * v**2

                            if True:
                            plt.figure()
                            plt.subplot(2, 2, 1)
                            things = (hkm, vkph, mach, rho, Q)
                            names = ('height (km)', 'velocity (km/h)', 'mach', 'density (kg/m^3)', 'Q')
                            for i, (thing, name) in enumerate(zip(things, names)):
                            plt.subplot(5, 1, i+1)
                            plt.plot(times, thing)
                            if i == 2:
                            plt.ylim(0, 3)
                            plt.plot(times, np.ones_like(times), '-k')
                            llim, ulim = plt.ylim()
                            plt.text(5, 0.7*ulim, name)
                            plt.xlabel('time (sec)', fontsize=16)
                            plt.show()






                            share|improve this answer














                            share|improve this answer



                            share|improve this answer








                            edited 3 hours ago

























                            answered 3 hours ago









                            uhohuhoh

                            36.8k18132472




                            36.8k18132472























                                0












                                $begingroup$

                                No. Rockets need to be optimized for various, contradicting requirements:




                                1. Minimal mass of the hull ($rightarrow$ should be so weak as possible)

                                2. Aerodynamics of the hull in sub-sonical regime

                                3. Aerodynamics of the hull in supersonical regime (very different from the sub-sonical aerodynamics)

                                4. Minimal gravity loss ($rightarrow$ it needs to get to orbit quickly)

                                5. Minimal aerodynamical loss ($rightarrow$ should not fly too quickly in dense athmosphere)


                                The planned trajectory of the vehicle is a compromise between them.



                                There is no direct reason to close out a sub-sonical max-Q. It simply didn't happen on engineering optimization reasons until now.






                                share|improve this answer









                                $endgroup$


















                                  0












                                  $begingroup$

                                  No. Rockets need to be optimized for various, contradicting requirements:




                                  1. Minimal mass of the hull ($rightarrow$ should be so weak as possible)

                                  2. Aerodynamics of the hull in sub-sonical regime

                                  3. Aerodynamics of the hull in supersonical regime (very different from the sub-sonical aerodynamics)

                                  4. Minimal gravity loss ($rightarrow$ it needs to get to orbit quickly)

                                  5. Minimal aerodynamical loss ($rightarrow$ should not fly too quickly in dense athmosphere)


                                  The planned trajectory of the vehicle is a compromise between them.



                                  There is no direct reason to close out a sub-sonical max-Q. It simply didn't happen on engineering optimization reasons until now.






                                  share|improve this answer









                                  $endgroup$
















                                    0












                                    0








                                    0





                                    $begingroup$

                                    No. Rockets need to be optimized for various, contradicting requirements:




                                    1. Minimal mass of the hull ($rightarrow$ should be so weak as possible)

                                    2. Aerodynamics of the hull in sub-sonical regime

                                    3. Aerodynamics of the hull in supersonical regime (very different from the sub-sonical aerodynamics)

                                    4. Minimal gravity loss ($rightarrow$ it needs to get to orbit quickly)

                                    5. Minimal aerodynamical loss ($rightarrow$ should not fly too quickly in dense athmosphere)


                                    The planned trajectory of the vehicle is a compromise between them.



                                    There is no direct reason to close out a sub-sonical max-Q. It simply didn't happen on engineering optimization reasons until now.






                                    share|improve this answer









                                    $endgroup$



                                    No. Rockets need to be optimized for various, contradicting requirements:




                                    1. Minimal mass of the hull ($rightarrow$ should be so weak as possible)

                                    2. Aerodynamics of the hull in sub-sonical regime

                                    3. Aerodynamics of the hull in supersonical regime (very different from the sub-sonical aerodynamics)

                                    4. Minimal gravity loss ($rightarrow$ it needs to get to orbit quickly)

                                    5. Minimal aerodynamical loss ($rightarrow$ should not fly too quickly in dense athmosphere)


                                    The planned trajectory of the vehicle is a compromise between them.



                                    There is no direct reason to close out a sub-sonical max-Q. It simply didn't happen on engineering optimization reasons until now.







                                    share|improve this answer












                                    share|improve this answer



                                    share|improve this answer










                                    answered 1 hour ago









                                    peterhpeterh

                                    1,93111531




                                    1,93111531






























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