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What's the oldest plausible frozen specimen for a Jurassic Park style story-line?


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We've found all sorts of interesting stuff in arctic ice & permafrost around the world.



Bacteria & the like far older than the more media friendly mammoth specimens have been found, living bacteria has been found in ice cores as old as 420,000 years.



Obviously I'm not thinking about living specimens.



The ebb & flow of the ice & permafrost through our various ice ages are probably a factor in what might plausibly have survived unthawed to be found & by extension where (not all dinosaurs lived exclusively in warm climates) & when any particular species was found.



So is a frozen dinosaur in any way plausible, how about a neanderthal?










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  • 1




    $begingroup$
    It may also benefit you to look at dry preservation, most of the Neanderthal DNA we have comes from extremely desiccating environments.
    $endgroup$
    – Ash
    3 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @Ash Hmm.. so the full monty version of this enterprise likely has 3 specialist departments then ~ for storage (handling & dna extraction etc) of frozen, dry & amber samples.
    $endgroup$
    – Pelinore
    1 hour ago












  • $begingroup$
    DNA has been extracted from extremely ancient insects in amber,so if you are only interested in bringing back insects you can go back to the Carboniferous.
    $endgroup$
    – John
    47 mins ago
















3












$begingroup$


We've found all sorts of interesting stuff in arctic ice & permafrost around the world.



Bacteria & the like far older than the more media friendly mammoth specimens have been found, living bacteria has been found in ice cores as old as 420,000 years.



Obviously I'm not thinking about living specimens.



The ebb & flow of the ice & permafrost through our various ice ages are probably a factor in what might plausibly have survived unthawed to be found & by extension where (not all dinosaurs lived exclusively in warm climates) & when any particular species was found.



So is a frozen dinosaur in any way plausible, how about a neanderthal?










share|improve this question











$endgroup$








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    It may also benefit you to look at dry preservation, most of the Neanderthal DNA we have comes from extremely desiccating environments.
    $endgroup$
    – Ash
    3 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @Ash Hmm.. so the full monty version of this enterprise likely has 3 specialist departments then ~ for storage (handling & dna extraction etc) of frozen, dry & amber samples.
    $endgroup$
    – Pelinore
    1 hour ago












  • $begingroup$
    DNA has been extracted from extremely ancient insects in amber,so if you are only interested in bringing back insects you can go back to the Carboniferous.
    $endgroup$
    – John
    47 mins ago














3












3








3





$begingroup$


We've found all sorts of interesting stuff in arctic ice & permafrost around the world.



Bacteria & the like far older than the more media friendly mammoth specimens have been found, living bacteria has been found in ice cores as old as 420,000 years.



Obviously I'm not thinking about living specimens.



The ebb & flow of the ice & permafrost through our various ice ages are probably a factor in what might plausibly have survived unthawed to be found & by extension where (not all dinosaurs lived exclusively in warm climates) & when any particular species was found.



So is a frozen dinosaur in any way plausible, how about a neanderthal?










share|improve this question











$endgroup$




We've found all sorts of interesting stuff in arctic ice & permafrost around the world.



Bacteria & the like far older than the more media friendly mammoth specimens have been found, living bacteria has been found in ice cores as old as 420,000 years.



Obviously I'm not thinking about living specimens.



The ebb & flow of the ice & permafrost through our various ice ages are probably a factor in what might plausibly have survived unthawed to be found & by extension where (not all dinosaurs lived exclusively in warm climates) & when any particular species was found.



So is a frozen dinosaur in any way plausible, how about a neanderthal?







science-based reality-check climate






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited 1 hour ago







Pelinore

















asked 4 hours ago









PelinorePelinore

2,445520




2,445520








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    It may also benefit you to look at dry preservation, most of the Neanderthal DNA we have comes from extremely desiccating environments.
    $endgroup$
    – Ash
    3 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @Ash Hmm.. so the full monty version of this enterprise likely has 3 specialist departments then ~ for storage (handling & dna extraction etc) of frozen, dry & amber samples.
    $endgroup$
    – Pelinore
    1 hour ago












  • $begingroup$
    DNA has been extracted from extremely ancient insects in amber,so if you are only interested in bringing back insects you can go back to the Carboniferous.
    $endgroup$
    – John
    47 mins ago














  • 1




    $begingroup$
    It may also benefit you to look at dry preservation, most of the Neanderthal DNA we have comes from extremely desiccating environments.
    $endgroup$
    – Ash
    3 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @Ash Hmm.. so the full monty version of this enterprise likely has 3 specialist departments then ~ for storage (handling & dna extraction etc) of frozen, dry & amber samples.
    $endgroup$
    – Pelinore
    1 hour ago












  • $begingroup$
    DNA has been extracted from extremely ancient insects in amber,so if you are only interested in bringing back insects you can go back to the Carboniferous.
    $endgroup$
    – John
    47 mins ago








1




1




$begingroup$
It may also benefit you to look at dry preservation, most of the Neanderthal DNA we have comes from extremely desiccating environments.
$endgroup$
– Ash
3 hours ago




$begingroup$
It may also benefit you to look at dry preservation, most of the Neanderthal DNA we have comes from extremely desiccating environments.
$endgroup$
– Ash
3 hours ago












$begingroup$
@Ash Hmm.. so the full monty version of this enterprise likely has 3 specialist departments then ~ for storage (handling & dna extraction etc) of frozen, dry & amber samples.
$endgroup$
– Pelinore
1 hour ago






$begingroup$
@Ash Hmm.. so the full monty version of this enterprise likely has 3 specialist departments then ~ for storage (handling & dna extraction etc) of frozen, dry & amber samples.
$endgroup$
– Pelinore
1 hour ago














$begingroup$
DNA has been extracted from extremely ancient insects in amber,so if you are only interested in bringing back insects you can go back to the Carboniferous.
$endgroup$
– John
47 mins ago




$begingroup$
DNA has been extracted from extremely ancient insects in amber,so if you are only interested in bringing back insects you can go back to the Carboniferous.
$endgroup$
– John
47 mins ago










5 Answers
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Permanent ice caps have not been a constant during Earth history. For example we know that in the past the poles were free from ice.



Therefore the oldest possible frozen sample is as old as the oldest permanent ice caps or frozen terrain on Earth. Anything that got frozen before that time has been thawed in the meantime.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    Damn good point, guess I was wrong about that being a question for another day, it actually goes to the core of the question.. hmm, the question may need a rejig, or that might just be the answer ~ 35 million years ago was the last time the ice caps weren't there.
    $endgroup$
    – Pelinore
    4 hours ago












  • $begingroup$
    Dinasaurs are off the table then ~ they went extinct 65 million years ago, neanderthals are a mere 40 thousand years ago so they're plausible.
    $endgroup$
    – Pelinore
    4 hours ago








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @Pelinore: The Antarctic ice sheet formed about 35 to 45 million years ago. The Greenland ice cap is less than 20 million years old. Anyway, the Mesozoic ended 66 mya, so neither ice sheet can contain frozen non-avian dinosaurs.
    $endgroup$
    – AlexP
    4 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Ah! given their distribution neanderthals are also off the menu, oh well.
    $endgroup$
    – Pelinore
    4 hours ago








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @John, amber does not qualify for frozen sample, as per OP's question
    $endgroup$
    – L.Dutch
    18 mins ago



















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We have the actual example of the Ice Man -- beaker culture neolithic discovered in the Alps. He was about 9000 years old.



So that can set some parameters:



Hunter or band traveling across and icefield that is in a pocket between multiple peaks. Dies in late fall. Exceptional snowfall period, so is buried under permanent snow cover which as the ice builds up puts him deeper.



Because it's a basin, the ice there doesn't move. When the ice builds up in thickness, there is a shear plane above it. Can't have glaciers feeding into the bowl either. So take a bowl that is surrounded by steep peaks that can avalanche into the bowl, but not form glaciers. Eventually the ice gets thick enough that it is above the bowl, and the excess flows off.



I think the Columbia Icefield on the border between Alberta and BC fits these criteria.



To me this would be a plausible event going back to the start of the last ice age. This would get you back to somewhere between 115,000 and 22,000 years ago.
Last Glacial Period -- Wikipedia For the longer period, you need to have some glaciation through the short inter-glacials. A mountain based shield would meet this requirement.



If you want a story line, "My father's father said that he knew a hunter who had crossed The Pass of the Winds." But in the hundred years since the cooling climate has created a permanent snowfield there.



Much of Antarctica is under water. Strip off the ice, and you have substantial inland seas. Antarctica without ice You could have various things trapped by glaciers closing off the openings. I don't know to what extent these levels freeze down. If there were hollows above the then present sea level you could trap land animals as described above. This could plausibly take you back to the beginning of the Antarctic ice cap something like 40 Megayear ago. I suspect that the timing of that is vague, so you might plausibly extend it back some. Dig into Antarctic paleo climate.






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    The oldest frozen specimens would likely be roughly 15-30 million years old and would be whatever critters were on Antarctica during the Oligocene or early Miocene.



    Around that time, Antarctica finished its split from other land masses with the opening of the Drake Passage between it and South America, allowing the Antarctic Circumpolar Current to begin keeping warmer waters away and permanently freezing the continent into what we know today.



    Until it fully froze, conifer forests and steppes covered the continent, and if Antarctic fauna were anything like the rest of the world it was dominated by a mix of critters that were vaguely similar to today's large mammals, rodents, and sea life.



    So, it looks like your frozen Oligocene Park will probably be decorated with odd-looking pine trees, and be filled with horses and mice with weird snouts. Not as awe-inspiring as a T-Rex, but still pretty cool.





    As for finding frozen Neanderthals, it's possible but unlikely. In order to be found frozen, they would have needed to die in an area of permafrost that has been unchanged for the last 40-50,000 years, and their known range doesn't have many options for that. However, we did find a 5,000 year old mummy frozen in the Alps, so anything's possible.






    share|improve this answer











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      $begingroup$
      Skimming the images produced by a oligocene animals Google search I think I could live with that :)
      $endgroup$
      – Pelinore
      3 hours ago






    • 1




      $begingroup$
      @Pelinore: I'd imagine visiting Oligocene Park would give roughly the same feeling of the early explorers of Australia.
      $endgroup$
      – Giter
      3 hours ago












    • $begingroup$
      Here's (perhaps) the nearest thing to us from back then.
      $endgroup$
      – Pelinore
      2 hours ago












    • $begingroup$
      its still possible for neanderthal, that range is just our best estimate based on fossil and artifact remains, of course, it will not preclude the random lost stragglers. The expanding ice sheets would erase much of the evidence for their presence further north prior to the glacial maximum. It will be an earlier neanderthal though as they would have ot be from before the glacial maximum. Its a low chance but not impossible.
      $endgroup$
      – John
      41 mins ago










    • $begingroup$
      @John there were no hominids in the oligocene (which is what Giters answer is on about) ~ even monkeys & apes didn't exist then ~ only their ape-like shared ancestor ~ so no neanderthals in this answer :)
      $endgroup$
      – Pelinore
      9 mins ago





















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    a study published this week (October 10 [2012]) in the Proceedings of the Royal Society B estimates that DNA from bone has a half-life of 521 years




    (Link)



    That's the rate the DNA molecules spontaneously fall apart. This study does not address DNA in tissue other than bone, or how freezing temperature affects the deterioration of DNA, but I think it's still a decent estimate to start from.



    How good is your technology at reconstructing DNA from teeny fragments in trillions of cells? Neaderthals went extinct 35,000 years ago. After that long (~67 half life periods) only 1/147573950000000000000th of the DNA will be left. The article sets 1.5 million years as the point after which DNA strands are too short to be read, but the point at which you can no longer recreate the whole genome might be much shorter than that.






    share|improve this answer









    $endgroup$













    • $begingroup$
      "How good is your technology at reconstructing DNA from teeny fragments" : I would have hoped to go for real world near future (so maybe 40 years more) for a sheen of plausibility ~ but applied (or set in) the very near future (so no more than 10 years from now)
      $endgroup$
      – Pelinore
      18 mins ago





















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    $begingroup$

    It is an extreme long shot but it might be possible, some day. The extreme desiccating effects of amber has been shown to preserve DNA, even in specimens of the right time period. And at least one fragment of a dinosaur flesh has been found preserved in amber. Several feathers are also known to exist.



    The problems are three fold, not every piece of amber preserves DNA in fact most do not, and dinosaur material in amber are extremely rare, even by normal amber preservation standards. Lastly the DNA is extremely fragmentary so you are talking about massive reconstruction, to the point that said organism would be more invented than restored. It would also be the single largest and most complex genomic reconstruction in history, to the point you really would need a much better understanding of genomics and biochemistry than we have now. The only thing you have working for you is phylogenetic bracketing, and the fact said dinosaurs would be closely related to the ancestors of birds.






    share|improve this answer











    $endgroup$













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      5 Answers
      5






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      5 Answers
      5






      active

      oldest

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      active

      oldest

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      active

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      9












      $begingroup$

      Permanent ice caps have not been a constant during Earth history. For example we know that in the past the poles were free from ice.



      Therefore the oldest possible frozen sample is as old as the oldest permanent ice caps or frozen terrain on Earth. Anything that got frozen before that time has been thawed in the meantime.






      share|improve this answer









      $endgroup$













      • $begingroup$
        Damn good point, guess I was wrong about that being a question for another day, it actually goes to the core of the question.. hmm, the question may need a rejig, or that might just be the answer ~ 35 million years ago was the last time the ice caps weren't there.
        $endgroup$
        – Pelinore
        4 hours ago












      • $begingroup$
        Dinasaurs are off the table then ~ they went extinct 65 million years ago, neanderthals are a mere 40 thousand years ago so they're plausible.
        $endgroup$
        – Pelinore
        4 hours ago








      • 1




        $begingroup$
        @Pelinore: The Antarctic ice sheet formed about 35 to 45 million years ago. The Greenland ice cap is less than 20 million years old. Anyway, the Mesozoic ended 66 mya, so neither ice sheet can contain frozen non-avian dinosaurs.
        $endgroup$
        – AlexP
        4 hours ago










      • $begingroup$
        Ah! given their distribution neanderthals are also off the menu, oh well.
        $endgroup$
        – Pelinore
        4 hours ago








      • 1




        $begingroup$
        @John, amber does not qualify for frozen sample, as per OP's question
        $endgroup$
        – L.Dutch
        18 mins ago
















      9












      $begingroup$

      Permanent ice caps have not been a constant during Earth history. For example we know that in the past the poles were free from ice.



      Therefore the oldest possible frozen sample is as old as the oldest permanent ice caps or frozen terrain on Earth. Anything that got frozen before that time has been thawed in the meantime.






      share|improve this answer









      $endgroup$













      • $begingroup$
        Damn good point, guess I was wrong about that being a question for another day, it actually goes to the core of the question.. hmm, the question may need a rejig, or that might just be the answer ~ 35 million years ago was the last time the ice caps weren't there.
        $endgroup$
        – Pelinore
        4 hours ago












      • $begingroup$
        Dinasaurs are off the table then ~ they went extinct 65 million years ago, neanderthals are a mere 40 thousand years ago so they're plausible.
        $endgroup$
        – Pelinore
        4 hours ago








      • 1




        $begingroup$
        @Pelinore: The Antarctic ice sheet formed about 35 to 45 million years ago. The Greenland ice cap is less than 20 million years old. Anyway, the Mesozoic ended 66 mya, so neither ice sheet can contain frozen non-avian dinosaurs.
        $endgroup$
        – AlexP
        4 hours ago










      • $begingroup$
        Ah! given their distribution neanderthals are also off the menu, oh well.
        $endgroup$
        – Pelinore
        4 hours ago








      • 1




        $begingroup$
        @John, amber does not qualify for frozen sample, as per OP's question
        $endgroup$
        – L.Dutch
        18 mins ago














      9












      9








      9





      $begingroup$

      Permanent ice caps have not been a constant during Earth history. For example we know that in the past the poles were free from ice.



      Therefore the oldest possible frozen sample is as old as the oldest permanent ice caps or frozen terrain on Earth. Anything that got frozen before that time has been thawed in the meantime.






      share|improve this answer









      $endgroup$



      Permanent ice caps have not been a constant during Earth history. For example we know that in the past the poles were free from ice.



      Therefore the oldest possible frozen sample is as old as the oldest permanent ice caps or frozen terrain on Earth. Anything that got frozen before that time has been thawed in the meantime.







      share|improve this answer












      share|improve this answer



      share|improve this answer










      answered 4 hours ago









      L.DutchL.Dutch

      85k28201415




      85k28201415












      • $begingroup$
        Damn good point, guess I was wrong about that being a question for another day, it actually goes to the core of the question.. hmm, the question may need a rejig, or that might just be the answer ~ 35 million years ago was the last time the ice caps weren't there.
        $endgroup$
        – Pelinore
        4 hours ago












      • $begingroup$
        Dinasaurs are off the table then ~ they went extinct 65 million years ago, neanderthals are a mere 40 thousand years ago so they're plausible.
        $endgroup$
        – Pelinore
        4 hours ago








      • 1




        $begingroup$
        @Pelinore: The Antarctic ice sheet formed about 35 to 45 million years ago. The Greenland ice cap is less than 20 million years old. Anyway, the Mesozoic ended 66 mya, so neither ice sheet can contain frozen non-avian dinosaurs.
        $endgroup$
        – AlexP
        4 hours ago










      • $begingroup$
        Ah! given their distribution neanderthals are also off the menu, oh well.
        $endgroup$
        – Pelinore
        4 hours ago








      • 1




        $begingroup$
        @John, amber does not qualify for frozen sample, as per OP's question
        $endgroup$
        – L.Dutch
        18 mins ago


















      • $begingroup$
        Damn good point, guess I was wrong about that being a question for another day, it actually goes to the core of the question.. hmm, the question may need a rejig, or that might just be the answer ~ 35 million years ago was the last time the ice caps weren't there.
        $endgroup$
        – Pelinore
        4 hours ago












      • $begingroup$
        Dinasaurs are off the table then ~ they went extinct 65 million years ago, neanderthals are a mere 40 thousand years ago so they're plausible.
        $endgroup$
        – Pelinore
        4 hours ago








      • 1




        $begingroup$
        @Pelinore: The Antarctic ice sheet formed about 35 to 45 million years ago. The Greenland ice cap is less than 20 million years old. Anyway, the Mesozoic ended 66 mya, so neither ice sheet can contain frozen non-avian dinosaurs.
        $endgroup$
        – AlexP
        4 hours ago










      • $begingroup$
        Ah! given their distribution neanderthals are also off the menu, oh well.
        $endgroup$
        – Pelinore
        4 hours ago








      • 1




        $begingroup$
        @John, amber does not qualify for frozen sample, as per OP's question
        $endgroup$
        – L.Dutch
        18 mins ago
















      $begingroup$
      Damn good point, guess I was wrong about that being a question for another day, it actually goes to the core of the question.. hmm, the question may need a rejig, or that might just be the answer ~ 35 million years ago was the last time the ice caps weren't there.
      $endgroup$
      – Pelinore
      4 hours ago






      $begingroup$
      Damn good point, guess I was wrong about that being a question for another day, it actually goes to the core of the question.. hmm, the question may need a rejig, or that might just be the answer ~ 35 million years ago was the last time the ice caps weren't there.
      $endgroup$
      – Pelinore
      4 hours ago














      $begingroup$
      Dinasaurs are off the table then ~ they went extinct 65 million years ago, neanderthals are a mere 40 thousand years ago so they're plausible.
      $endgroup$
      – Pelinore
      4 hours ago






      $begingroup$
      Dinasaurs are off the table then ~ they went extinct 65 million years ago, neanderthals are a mere 40 thousand years ago so they're plausible.
      $endgroup$
      – Pelinore
      4 hours ago






      1




      1




      $begingroup$
      @Pelinore: The Antarctic ice sheet formed about 35 to 45 million years ago. The Greenland ice cap is less than 20 million years old. Anyway, the Mesozoic ended 66 mya, so neither ice sheet can contain frozen non-avian dinosaurs.
      $endgroup$
      – AlexP
      4 hours ago




      $begingroup$
      @Pelinore: The Antarctic ice sheet formed about 35 to 45 million years ago. The Greenland ice cap is less than 20 million years old. Anyway, the Mesozoic ended 66 mya, so neither ice sheet can contain frozen non-avian dinosaurs.
      $endgroup$
      – AlexP
      4 hours ago












      $begingroup$
      Ah! given their distribution neanderthals are also off the menu, oh well.
      $endgroup$
      – Pelinore
      4 hours ago






      $begingroup$
      Ah! given their distribution neanderthals are also off the menu, oh well.
      $endgroup$
      – Pelinore
      4 hours ago






      1




      1




      $begingroup$
      @John, amber does not qualify for frozen sample, as per OP's question
      $endgroup$
      – L.Dutch
      18 mins ago




      $begingroup$
      @John, amber does not qualify for frozen sample, as per OP's question
      $endgroup$
      – L.Dutch
      18 mins ago











      2












      $begingroup$

      We have the actual example of the Ice Man -- beaker culture neolithic discovered in the Alps. He was about 9000 years old.



      So that can set some parameters:



      Hunter or band traveling across and icefield that is in a pocket between multiple peaks. Dies in late fall. Exceptional snowfall period, so is buried under permanent snow cover which as the ice builds up puts him deeper.



      Because it's a basin, the ice there doesn't move. When the ice builds up in thickness, there is a shear plane above it. Can't have glaciers feeding into the bowl either. So take a bowl that is surrounded by steep peaks that can avalanche into the bowl, but not form glaciers. Eventually the ice gets thick enough that it is above the bowl, and the excess flows off.



      I think the Columbia Icefield on the border between Alberta and BC fits these criteria.



      To me this would be a plausible event going back to the start of the last ice age. This would get you back to somewhere between 115,000 and 22,000 years ago.
      Last Glacial Period -- Wikipedia For the longer period, you need to have some glaciation through the short inter-glacials. A mountain based shield would meet this requirement.



      If you want a story line, "My father's father said that he knew a hunter who had crossed The Pass of the Winds." But in the hundred years since the cooling climate has created a permanent snowfield there.



      Much of Antarctica is under water. Strip off the ice, and you have substantial inland seas. Antarctica without ice You could have various things trapped by glaciers closing off the openings. I don't know to what extent these levels freeze down. If there were hollows above the then present sea level you could trap land animals as described above. This could plausibly take you back to the beginning of the Antarctic ice cap something like 40 Megayear ago. I suspect that the timing of that is vague, so you might plausibly extend it back some. Dig into Antarctic paleo climate.






      share|improve this answer









      $endgroup$


















        2












        $begingroup$

        We have the actual example of the Ice Man -- beaker culture neolithic discovered in the Alps. He was about 9000 years old.



        So that can set some parameters:



        Hunter or band traveling across and icefield that is in a pocket between multiple peaks. Dies in late fall. Exceptional snowfall period, so is buried under permanent snow cover which as the ice builds up puts him deeper.



        Because it's a basin, the ice there doesn't move. When the ice builds up in thickness, there is a shear plane above it. Can't have glaciers feeding into the bowl either. So take a bowl that is surrounded by steep peaks that can avalanche into the bowl, but not form glaciers. Eventually the ice gets thick enough that it is above the bowl, and the excess flows off.



        I think the Columbia Icefield on the border between Alberta and BC fits these criteria.



        To me this would be a plausible event going back to the start of the last ice age. This would get you back to somewhere between 115,000 and 22,000 years ago.
        Last Glacial Period -- Wikipedia For the longer period, you need to have some glaciation through the short inter-glacials. A mountain based shield would meet this requirement.



        If you want a story line, "My father's father said that he knew a hunter who had crossed The Pass of the Winds." But in the hundred years since the cooling climate has created a permanent snowfield there.



        Much of Antarctica is under water. Strip off the ice, and you have substantial inland seas. Antarctica without ice You could have various things trapped by glaciers closing off the openings. I don't know to what extent these levels freeze down. If there were hollows above the then present sea level you could trap land animals as described above. This could plausibly take you back to the beginning of the Antarctic ice cap something like 40 Megayear ago. I suspect that the timing of that is vague, so you might plausibly extend it back some. Dig into Antarctic paleo climate.






        share|improve this answer









        $endgroup$
















          2












          2








          2





          $begingroup$

          We have the actual example of the Ice Man -- beaker culture neolithic discovered in the Alps. He was about 9000 years old.



          So that can set some parameters:



          Hunter or band traveling across and icefield that is in a pocket between multiple peaks. Dies in late fall. Exceptional snowfall period, so is buried under permanent snow cover which as the ice builds up puts him deeper.



          Because it's a basin, the ice there doesn't move. When the ice builds up in thickness, there is a shear plane above it. Can't have glaciers feeding into the bowl either. So take a bowl that is surrounded by steep peaks that can avalanche into the bowl, but not form glaciers. Eventually the ice gets thick enough that it is above the bowl, and the excess flows off.



          I think the Columbia Icefield on the border between Alberta and BC fits these criteria.



          To me this would be a plausible event going back to the start of the last ice age. This would get you back to somewhere between 115,000 and 22,000 years ago.
          Last Glacial Period -- Wikipedia For the longer period, you need to have some glaciation through the short inter-glacials. A mountain based shield would meet this requirement.



          If you want a story line, "My father's father said that he knew a hunter who had crossed The Pass of the Winds." But in the hundred years since the cooling climate has created a permanent snowfield there.



          Much of Antarctica is under water. Strip off the ice, and you have substantial inland seas. Antarctica without ice You could have various things trapped by glaciers closing off the openings. I don't know to what extent these levels freeze down. If there were hollows above the then present sea level you could trap land animals as described above. This could plausibly take you back to the beginning of the Antarctic ice cap something like 40 Megayear ago. I suspect that the timing of that is vague, so you might plausibly extend it back some. Dig into Antarctic paleo climate.






          share|improve this answer









          $endgroup$



          We have the actual example of the Ice Man -- beaker culture neolithic discovered in the Alps. He was about 9000 years old.



          So that can set some parameters:



          Hunter or band traveling across and icefield that is in a pocket between multiple peaks. Dies in late fall. Exceptional snowfall period, so is buried under permanent snow cover which as the ice builds up puts him deeper.



          Because it's a basin, the ice there doesn't move. When the ice builds up in thickness, there is a shear plane above it. Can't have glaciers feeding into the bowl either. So take a bowl that is surrounded by steep peaks that can avalanche into the bowl, but not form glaciers. Eventually the ice gets thick enough that it is above the bowl, and the excess flows off.



          I think the Columbia Icefield on the border between Alberta and BC fits these criteria.



          To me this would be a plausible event going back to the start of the last ice age. This would get you back to somewhere between 115,000 and 22,000 years ago.
          Last Glacial Period -- Wikipedia For the longer period, you need to have some glaciation through the short inter-glacials. A mountain based shield would meet this requirement.



          If you want a story line, "My father's father said that he knew a hunter who had crossed The Pass of the Winds." But in the hundred years since the cooling climate has created a permanent snowfield there.



          Much of Antarctica is under water. Strip off the ice, and you have substantial inland seas. Antarctica without ice You could have various things trapped by glaciers closing off the openings. I don't know to what extent these levels freeze down. If there were hollows above the then present sea level you could trap land animals as described above. This could plausibly take you back to the beginning of the Antarctic ice cap something like 40 Megayear ago. I suspect that the timing of that is vague, so you might plausibly extend it back some. Dig into Antarctic paleo climate.







          share|improve this answer












          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer










          answered 2 hours ago









          Sherwood BotsfordSherwood Botsford

          6,870733




          6,870733























              2












              $begingroup$

              The oldest frozen specimens would likely be roughly 15-30 million years old and would be whatever critters were on Antarctica during the Oligocene or early Miocene.



              Around that time, Antarctica finished its split from other land masses with the opening of the Drake Passage between it and South America, allowing the Antarctic Circumpolar Current to begin keeping warmer waters away and permanently freezing the continent into what we know today.



              Until it fully froze, conifer forests and steppes covered the continent, and if Antarctic fauna were anything like the rest of the world it was dominated by a mix of critters that were vaguely similar to today's large mammals, rodents, and sea life.



              So, it looks like your frozen Oligocene Park will probably be decorated with odd-looking pine trees, and be filled with horses and mice with weird snouts. Not as awe-inspiring as a T-Rex, but still pretty cool.





              As for finding frozen Neanderthals, it's possible but unlikely. In order to be found frozen, they would have needed to die in an area of permafrost that has been unchanged for the last 40-50,000 years, and their known range doesn't have many options for that. However, we did find a 5,000 year old mummy frozen in the Alps, so anything's possible.






              share|improve this answer











              $endgroup$









              • 1




                $begingroup$
                Skimming the images produced by a oligocene animals Google search I think I could live with that :)
                $endgroup$
                – Pelinore
                3 hours ago






              • 1




                $begingroup$
                @Pelinore: I'd imagine visiting Oligocene Park would give roughly the same feeling of the early explorers of Australia.
                $endgroup$
                – Giter
                3 hours ago












              • $begingroup$
                Here's (perhaps) the nearest thing to us from back then.
                $endgroup$
                – Pelinore
                2 hours ago












              • $begingroup$
                its still possible for neanderthal, that range is just our best estimate based on fossil and artifact remains, of course, it will not preclude the random lost stragglers. The expanding ice sheets would erase much of the evidence for their presence further north prior to the glacial maximum. It will be an earlier neanderthal though as they would have ot be from before the glacial maximum. Its a low chance but not impossible.
                $endgroup$
                – John
                41 mins ago










              • $begingroup$
                @John there were no hominids in the oligocene (which is what Giters answer is on about) ~ even monkeys & apes didn't exist then ~ only their ape-like shared ancestor ~ so no neanderthals in this answer :)
                $endgroup$
                – Pelinore
                9 mins ago


















              2












              $begingroup$

              The oldest frozen specimens would likely be roughly 15-30 million years old and would be whatever critters were on Antarctica during the Oligocene or early Miocene.



              Around that time, Antarctica finished its split from other land masses with the opening of the Drake Passage between it and South America, allowing the Antarctic Circumpolar Current to begin keeping warmer waters away and permanently freezing the continent into what we know today.



              Until it fully froze, conifer forests and steppes covered the continent, and if Antarctic fauna were anything like the rest of the world it was dominated by a mix of critters that were vaguely similar to today's large mammals, rodents, and sea life.



              So, it looks like your frozen Oligocene Park will probably be decorated with odd-looking pine trees, and be filled with horses and mice with weird snouts. Not as awe-inspiring as a T-Rex, but still pretty cool.





              As for finding frozen Neanderthals, it's possible but unlikely. In order to be found frozen, they would have needed to die in an area of permafrost that has been unchanged for the last 40-50,000 years, and their known range doesn't have many options for that. However, we did find a 5,000 year old mummy frozen in the Alps, so anything's possible.






              share|improve this answer











              $endgroup$









              • 1




                $begingroup$
                Skimming the images produced by a oligocene animals Google search I think I could live with that :)
                $endgroup$
                – Pelinore
                3 hours ago






              • 1




                $begingroup$
                @Pelinore: I'd imagine visiting Oligocene Park would give roughly the same feeling of the early explorers of Australia.
                $endgroup$
                – Giter
                3 hours ago












              • $begingroup$
                Here's (perhaps) the nearest thing to us from back then.
                $endgroup$
                – Pelinore
                2 hours ago












              • $begingroup$
                its still possible for neanderthal, that range is just our best estimate based on fossil and artifact remains, of course, it will not preclude the random lost stragglers. The expanding ice sheets would erase much of the evidence for their presence further north prior to the glacial maximum. It will be an earlier neanderthal though as they would have ot be from before the glacial maximum. Its a low chance but not impossible.
                $endgroup$
                – John
                41 mins ago










              • $begingroup$
                @John there were no hominids in the oligocene (which is what Giters answer is on about) ~ even monkeys & apes didn't exist then ~ only their ape-like shared ancestor ~ so no neanderthals in this answer :)
                $endgroup$
                – Pelinore
                9 mins ago
















              2












              2








              2





              $begingroup$

              The oldest frozen specimens would likely be roughly 15-30 million years old and would be whatever critters were on Antarctica during the Oligocene or early Miocene.



              Around that time, Antarctica finished its split from other land masses with the opening of the Drake Passage between it and South America, allowing the Antarctic Circumpolar Current to begin keeping warmer waters away and permanently freezing the continent into what we know today.



              Until it fully froze, conifer forests and steppes covered the continent, and if Antarctic fauna were anything like the rest of the world it was dominated by a mix of critters that were vaguely similar to today's large mammals, rodents, and sea life.



              So, it looks like your frozen Oligocene Park will probably be decorated with odd-looking pine trees, and be filled with horses and mice with weird snouts. Not as awe-inspiring as a T-Rex, but still pretty cool.





              As for finding frozen Neanderthals, it's possible but unlikely. In order to be found frozen, they would have needed to die in an area of permafrost that has been unchanged for the last 40-50,000 years, and their known range doesn't have many options for that. However, we did find a 5,000 year old mummy frozen in the Alps, so anything's possible.






              share|improve this answer











              $endgroup$



              The oldest frozen specimens would likely be roughly 15-30 million years old and would be whatever critters were on Antarctica during the Oligocene or early Miocene.



              Around that time, Antarctica finished its split from other land masses with the opening of the Drake Passage between it and South America, allowing the Antarctic Circumpolar Current to begin keeping warmer waters away and permanently freezing the continent into what we know today.



              Until it fully froze, conifer forests and steppes covered the continent, and if Antarctic fauna were anything like the rest of the world it was dominated by a mix of critters that were vaguely similar to today's large mammals, rodents, and sea life.



              So, it looks like your frozen Oligocene Park will probably be decorated with odd-looking pine trees, and be filled with horses and mice with weird snouts. Not as awe-inspiring as a T-Rex, but still pretty cool.





              As for finding frozen Neanderthals, it's possible but unlikely. In order to be found frozen, they would have needed to die in an area of permafrost that has been unchanged for the last 40-50,000 years, and their known range doesn't have many options for that. However, we did find a 5,000 year old mummy frozen in the Alps, so anything's possible.







              share|improve this answer














              share|improve this answer



              share|improve this answer








              edited 2 hours ago

























              answered 3 hours ago









              GiterGiter

              13.7k53241




              13.7k53241








              • 1




                $begingroup$
                Skimming the images produced by a oligocene animals Google search I think I could live with that :)
                $endgroup$
                – Pelinore
                3 hours ago






              • 1




                $begingroup$
                @Pelinore: I'd imagine visiting Oligocene Park would give roughly the same feeling of the early explorers of Australia.
                $endgroup$
                – Giter
                3 hours ago












              • $begingroup$
                Here's (perhaps) the nearest thing to us from back then.
                $endgroup$
                – Pelinore
                2 hours ago












              • $begingroup$
                its still possible for neanderthal, that range is just our best estimate based on fossil and artifact remains, of course, it will not preclude the random lost stragglers. The expanding ice sheets would erase much of the evidence for their presence further north prior to the glacial maximum. It will be an earlier neanderthal though as they would have ot be from before the glacial maximum. Its a low chance but not impossible.
                $endgroup$
                – John
                41 mins ago










              • $begingroup$
                @John there were no hominids in the oligocene (which is what Giters answer is on about) ~ even monkeys & apes didn't exist then ~ only their ape-like shared ancestor ~ so no neanderthals in this answer :)
                $endgroup$
                – Pelinore
                9 mins ago
















              • 1




                $begingroup$
                Skimming the images produced by a oligocene animals Google search I think I could live with that :)
                $endgroup$
                – Pelinore
                3 hours ago






              • 1




                $begingroup$
                @Pelinore: I'd imagine visiting Oligocene Park would give roughly the same feeling of the early explorers of Australia.
                $endgroup$
                – Giter
                3 hours ago












              • $begingroup$
                Here's (perhaps) the nearest thing to us from back then.
                $endgroup$
                – Pelinore
                2 hours ago












              • $begingroup$
                its still possible for neanderthal, that range is just our best estimate based on fossil and artifact remains, of course, it will not preclude the random lost stragglers. The expanding ice sheets would erase much of the evidence for their presence further north prior to the glacial maximum. It will be an earlier neanderthal though as they would have ot be from before the glacial maximum. Its a low chance but not impossible.
                $endgroup$
                – John
                41 mins ago










              • $begingroup$
                @John there were no hominids in the oligocene (which is what Giters answer is on about) ~ even monkeys & apes didn't exist then ~ only their ape-like shared ancestor ~ so no neanderthals in this answer :)
                $endgroup$
                – Pelinore
                9 mins ago










              1




              1




              $begingroup$
              Skimming the images produced by a oligocene animals Google search I think I could live with that :)
              $endgroup$
              – Pelinore
              3 hours ago




              $begingroup$
              Skimming the images produced by a oligocene animals Google search I think I could live with that :)
              $endgroup$
              – Pelinore
              3 hours ago




              1




              1




              $begingroup$
              @Pelinore: I'd imagine visiting Oligocene Park would give roughly the same feeling of the early explorers of Australia.
              $endgroup$
              – Giter
              3 hours ago






              $begingroup$
              @Pelinore: I'd imagine visiting Oligocene Park would give roughly the same feeling of the early explorers of Australia.
              $endgroup$
              – Giter
              3 hours ago














              $begingroup$
              Here's (perhaps) the nearest thing to us from back then.
              $endgroup$
              – Pelinore
              2 hours ago






              $begingroup$
              Here's (perhaps) the nearest thing to us from back then.
              $endgroup$
              – Pelinore
              2 hours ago














              $begingroup$
              its still possible for neanderthal, that range is just our best estimate based on fossil and artifact remains, of course, it will not preclude the random lost stragglers. The expanding ice sheets would erase much of the evidence for their presence further north prior to the glacial maximum. It will be an earlier neanderthal though as they would have ot be from before the glacial maximum. Its a low chance but not impossible.
              $endgroup$
              – John
              41 mins ago




              $begingroup$
              its still possible for neanderthal, that range is just our best estimate based on fossil and artifact remains, of course, it will not preclude the random lost stragglers. The expanding ice sheets would erase much of the evidence for their presence further north prior to the glacial maximum. It will be an earlier neanderthal though as they would have ot be from before the glacial maximum. Its a low chance but not impossible.
              $endgroup$
              – John
              41 mins ago












              $begingroup$
              @John there were no hominids in the oligocene (which is what Giters answer is on about) ~ even monkeys & apes didn't exist then ~ only their ape-like shared ancestor ~ so no neanderthals in this answer :)
              $endgroup$
              – Pelinore
              9 mins ago






              $begingroup$
              @John there were no hominids in the oligocene (which is what Giters answer is on about) ~ even monkeys & apes didn't exist then ~ only their ape-like shared ancestor ~ so no neanderthals in this answer :)
              $endgroup$
              – Pelinore
              9 mins ago













              0












              $begingroup$


              a study published this week (October 10 [2012]) in the Proceedings of the Royal Society B estimates that DNA from bone has a half-life of 521 years




              (Link)



              That's the rate the DNA molecules spontaneously fall apart. This study does not address DNA in tissue other than bone, or how freezing temperature affects the deterioration of DNA, but I think it's still a decent estimate to start from.



              How good is your technology at reconstructing DNA from teeny fragments in trillions of cells? Neaderthals went extinct 35,000 years ago. After that long (~67 half life periods) only 1/147573950000000000000th of the DNA will be left. The article sets 1.5 million years as the point after which DNA strands are too short to be read, but the point at which you can no longer recreate the whole genome might be much shorter than that.






              share|improve this answer









              $endgroup$













              • $begingroup$
                "How good is your technology at reconstructing DNA from teeny fragments" : I would have hoped to go for real world near future (so maybe 40 years more) for a sheen of plausibility ~ but applied (or set in) the very near future (so no more than 10 years from now)
                $endgroup$
                – Pelinore
                18 mins ago


















              0












              $begingroup$


              a study published this week (October 10 [2012]) in the Proceedings of the Royal Society B estimates that DNA from bone has a half-life of 521 years




              (Link)



              That's the rate the DNA molecules spontaneously fall apart. This study does not address DNA in tissue other than bone, or how freezing temperature affects the deterioration of DNA, but I think it's still a decent estimate to start from.



              How good is your technology at reconstructing DNA from teeny fragments in trillions of cells? Neaderthals went extinct 35,000 years ago. After that long (~67 half life periods) only 1/147573950000000000000th of the DNA will be left. The article sets 1.5 million years as the point after which DNA strands are too short to be read, but the point at which you can no longer recreate the whole genome might be much shorter than that.






              share|improve this answer









              $endgroup$













              • $begingroup$
                "How good is your technology at reconstructing DNA from teeny fragments" : I would have hoped to go for real world near future (so maybe 40 years more) for a sheen of plausibility ~ but applied (or set in) the very near future (so no more than 10 years from now)
                $endgroup$
                – Pelinore
                18 mins ago
















              0












              0








              0





              $begingroup$


              a study published this week (October 10 [2012]) in the Proceedings of the Royal Society B estimates that DNA from bone has a half-life of 521 years




              (Link)



              That's the rate the DNA molecules spontaneously fall apart. This study does not address DNA in tissue other than bone, or how freezing temperature affects the deterioration of DNA, but I think it's still a decent estimate to start from.



              How good is your technology at reconstructing DNA from teeny fragments in trillions of cells? Neaderthals went extinct 35,000 years ago. After that long (~67 half life periods) only 1/147573950000000000000th of the DNA will be left. The article sets 1.5 million years as the point after which DNA strands are too short to be read, but the point at which you can no longer recreate the whole genome might be much shorter than that.






              share|improve this answer









              $endgroup$




              a study published this week (October 10 [2012]) in the Proceedings of the Royal Society B estimates that DNA from bone has a half-life of 521 years




              (Link)



              That's the rate the DNA molecules spontaneously fall apart. This study does not address DNA in tissue other than bone, or how freezing temperature affects the deterioration of DNA, but I think it's still a decent estimate to start from.



              How good is your technology at reconstructing DNA from teeny fragments in trillions of cells? Neaderthals went extinct 35,000 years ago. After that long (~67 half life periods) only 1/147573950000000000000th of the DNA will be left. The article sets 1.5 million years as the point after which DNA strands are too short to be read, but the point at which you can no longer recreate the whole genome might be much shorter than that.







              share|improve this answer












              share|improve this answer



              share|improve this answer










              answered 33 mins ago









              LukeLuke

              1,700511




              1,700511












              • $begingroup$
                "How good is your technology at reconstructing DNA from teeny fragments" : I would have hoped to go for real world near future (so maybe 40 years more) for a sheen of plausibility ~ but applied (or set in) the very near future (so no more than 10 years from now)
                $endgroup$
                – Pelinore
                18 mins ago




















              • $begingroup$
                "How good is your technology at reconstructing DNA from teeny fragments" : I would have hoped to go for real world near future (so maybe 40 years more) for a sheen of plausibility ~ but applied (or set in) the very near future (so no more than 10 years from now)
                $endgroup$
                – Pelinore
                18 mins ago


















              $begingroup$
              "How good is your technology at reconstructing DNA from teeny fragments" : I would have hoped to go for real world near future (so maybe 40 years more) for a sheen of plausibility ~ but applied (or set in) the very near future (so no more than 10 years from now)
              $endgroup$
              – Pelinore
              18 mins ago






              $begingroup$
              "How good is your technology at reconstructing DNA from teeny fragments" : I would have hoped to go for real world near future (so maybe 40 years more) for a sheen of plausibility ~ but applied (or set in) the very near future (so no more than 10 years from now)
              $endgroup$
              – Pelinore
              18 mins ago













              0












              $begingroup$

              It is an extreme long shot but it might be possible, some day. The extreme desiccating effects of amber has been shown to preserve DNA, even in specimens of the right time period. And at least one fragment of a dinosaur flesh has been found preserved in amber. Several feathers are also known to exist.



              The problems are three fold, not every piece of amber preserves DNA in fact most do not, and dinosaur material in amber are extremely rare, even by normal amber preservation standards. Lastly the DNA is extremely fragmentary so you are talking about massive reconstruction, to the point that said organism would be more invented than restored. It would also be the single largest and most complex genomic reconstruction in history, to the point you really would need a much better understanding of genomics and biochemistry than we have now. The only thing you have working for you is phylogenetic bracketing, and the fact said dinosaurs would be closely related to the ancestors of birds.






              share|improve this answer











              $endgroup$


















                0












                $begingroup$

                It is an extreme long shot but it might be possible, some day. The extreme desiccating effects of amber has been shown to preserve DNA, even in specimens of the right time period. And at least one fragment of a dinosaur flesh has been found preserved in amber. Several feathers are also known to exist.



                The problems are three fold, not every piece of amber preserves DNA in fact most do not, and dinosaur material in amber are extremely rare, even by normal amber preservation standards. Lastly the DNA is extremely fragmentary so you are talking about massive reconstruction, to the point that said organism would be more invented than restored. It would also be the single largest and most complex genomic reconstruction in history, to the point you really would need a much better understanding of genomics and biochemistry than we have now. The only thing you have working for you is phylogenetic bracketing, and the fact said dinosaurs would be closely related to the ancestors of birds.






                share|improve this answer











                $endgroup$
















                  0












                  0








                  0





                  $begingroup$

                  It is an extreme long shot but it might be possible, some day. The extreme desiccating effects of amber has been shown to preserve DNA, even in specimens of the right time period. And at least one fragment of a dinosaur flesh has been found preserved in amber. Several feathers are also known to exist.



                  The problems are three fold, not every piece of amber preserves DNA in fact most do not, and dinosaur material in amber are extremely rare, even by normal amber preservation standards. Lastly the DNA is extremely fragmentary so you are talking about massive reconstruction, to the point that said organism would be more invented than restored. It would also be the single largest and most complex genomic reconstruction in history, to the point you really would need a much better understanding of genomics and biochemistry than we have now. The only thing you have working for you is phylogenetic bracketing, and the fact said dinosaurs would be closely related to the ancestors of birds.






                  share|improve this answer











                  $endgroup$



                  It is an extreme long shot but it might be possible, some day. The extreme desiccating effects of amber has been shown to preserve DNA, even in specimens of the right time period. And at least one fragment of a dinosaur flesh has been found preserved in amber. Several feathers are also known to exist.



                  The problems are three fold, not every piece of amber preserves DNA in fact most do not, and dinosaur material in amber are extremely rare, even by normal amber preservation standards. Lastly the DNA is extremely fragmentary so you are talking about massive reconstruction, to the point that said organism would be more invented than restored. It would also be the single largest and most complex genomic reconstruction in history, to the point you really would need a much better understanding of genomics and biochemistry than we have now. The only thing you have working for you is phylogenetic bracketing, and the fact said dinosaurs would be closely related to the ancestors of birds.







                  share|improve this answer














                  share|improve this answer



                  share|improve this answer








                  edited 1 min ago









                  Pelinore

                  2,445520




                  2,445520










                  answered 21 mins ago









                  JohnJohn

                  34k1045120




                  34k1045120






























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