Issue with units for a rocket nozzle throat area problemRocket Propulsion Elements: Total Impulse ProblemIs...
Propulsion Systems
Rationale to prefer local variables over instance variables?
Did Amazon pay $0 in taxes last year?
How to make sure I'm assertive enough in contact with subordinates?
How to educate team mate to take screenshots for bugs with out unwanted stuff
Vector-transposing function
Too soon for a plot twist?
How would an energy-based "projectile" blow up a spaceship?
How can I have x-axis ticks that show ticks scaled in powers of ten?
Professor forcing me to attend a conference, I can't afford even with 50% funding
What does *dead* mean in *What do you mean, dead?*?
Should we avoid writing fiction about historical events without extensive research?
Why isn't P and P/poly trivially the same?
Can I negotiate a patent idea for a raise, under French law?
What can I do if someone tampers with my SSH public key?
Boss Telling direct supervisor I snitched
Having the player face themselves after the mid-game
Can Witch Sight see through Mirror Image?
Is it appropriate to ask a former professor to order a library book for me through ILL?
A vote on the Brexit backstop
Giving a talk in my old university, how prominently should I tell students my salary?
Ultrafilters as a double dual
Why would /etc/passwd be used every time someone executes `ls -l` command?
Unfamiliar notation in Diabelli's "Duet in D" for piano
Issue with units for a rocket nozzle throat area problem
Rocket Propulsion Elements: Total Impulse ProblemIs there any rule for rocket engine nozzle proximity from each other?What's the nature of hoop stresses on a rocket nozzle?Are cold gas thrusters viable for model rockets?J-2 rocket nozzle length“Oh-my-god” particle drive performanceHow can phenolic (resin?) handle rocket engine nozzle temperatures?Cooling a hydrolox rocket with WaterIs there enough energy in a rocket nozzle for fission?How is the exit velocity of the flow in a sounding rocket nozzle?
$begingroup$
I'm working through How to Design, Build, and Test Small Liquid-Fuel Rocket Engines. The guide explains calculating a rocket nozzle throat area using Eq. (7):
$$A_t = frac{w_t}{P_t} sqrt{frac{R T_t}{gamma g_c}} $$
where $w_t$ is flow measured in lb/s, $P_t$ is pressure measured in psi, $R$ is the specific gas constant for gaseous oxygen and hydrocarbon fuel which equals 65 ft-lb/lb R(rankine), $T_t$ is temperature of the chamber measured in rankine, $gamma$ being the ratio of gas specific heats, and the gravitational constant $g_c$ measured in ft/s².
My issue is for the worked out problem on the guide, they give an example here but the answer is in in² instead of ft². I'm not sure how they got inches instead of feet because they didn't do any kind of conversion that I can tell. I tried following the units to see how they got inches but I'm not sure. Shouldn't the answer be in feet, and if not how is it inches?
rockets nozzle rocket-equation
New contributor
$endgroup$
|
show 2 more comments
$begingroup$
I'm working through How to Design, Build, and Test Small Liquid-Fuel Rocket Engines. The guide explains calculating a rocket nozzle throat area using Eq. (7):
$$A_t = frac{w_t}{P_t} sqrt{frac{R T_t}{gamma g_c}} $$
where $w_t$ is flow measured in lb/s, $P_t$ is pressure measured in psi, $R$ is the specific gas constant for gaseous oxygen and hydrocarbon fuel which equals 65 ft-lb/lb R(rankine), $T_t$ is temperature of the chamber measured in rankine, $gamma$ being the ratio of gas specific heats, and the gravitational constant $g_c$ measured in ft/s².
My issue is for the worked out problem on the guide, they give an example here but the answer is in in² instead of ft². I'm not sure how they got inches instead of feet because they didn't do any kind of conversion that I can tell. I tried following the units to see how they got inches but I'm not sure. Shouldn't the answer be in feet, and if not how is it inches?
rockets nozzle rocket-equation
New contributor
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
You can learn more about MathJax for equations here. I removed therocketlab
tag; after reading that the address and original text was from circa 1967, it doesn't seem to be related to the same company that the tag refers to.
$endgroup$
– uhoh
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
This is really a no-good equation because it has pounds mass (in the flowrate) over pounds force (in the press) outside the radical. It should be the mass flowrate in every engineer's favorite unit, slugs/sec. See Sutton p. 61 pyrobin.com/files/Rocket%20Propulsion%20Elements.pdf
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
@OrganicMarble Are the units for $R$ supposed to be ft-lbf / lbm R?
$endgroup$
– Russell Borogove
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
@RussellBorogove actually no. To be consistent it should be ft-lbf / slug R engineeringtoolbox.com/…
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
2 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@OrganicMarble Same dimensions, at least.
$endgroup$
– Russell Borogove
2 hours ago
|
show 2 more comments
$begingroup$
I'm working through How to Design, Build, and Test Small Liquid-Fuel Rocket Engines. The guide explains calculating a rocket nozzle throat area using Eq. (7):
$$A_t = frac{w_t}{P_t} sqrt{frac{R T_t}{gamma g_c}} $$
where $w_t$ is flow measured in lb/s, $P_t$ is pressure measured in psi, $R$ is the specific gas constant for gaseous oxygen and hydrocarbon fuel which equals 65 ft-lb/lb R(rankine), $T_t$ is temperature of the chamber measured in rankine, $gamma$ being the ratio of gas specific heats, and the gravitational constant $g_c$ measured in ft/s².
My issue is for the worked out problem on the guide, they give an example here but the answer is in in² instead of ft². I'm not sure how they got inches instead of feet because they didn't do any kind of conversion that I can tell. I tried following the units to see how they got inches but I'm not sure. Shouldn't the answer be in feet, and if not how is it inches?
rockets nozzle rocket-equation
New contributor
$endgroup$
I'm working through How to Design, Build, and Test Small Liquid-Fuel Rocket Engines. The guide explains calculating a rocket nozzle throat area using Eq. (7):
$$A_t = frac{w_t}{P_t} sqrt{frac{R T_t}{gamma g_c}} $$
where $w_t$ is flow measured in lb/s, $P_t$ is pressure measured in psi, $R$ is the specific gas constant for gaseous oxygen and hydrocarbon fuel which equals 65 ft-lb/lb R(rankine), $T_t$ is temperature of the chamber measured in rankine, $gamma$ being the ratio of gas specific heats, and the gravitational constant $g_c$ measured in ft/s².
My issue is for the worked out problem on the guide, they give an example here but the answer is in in² instead of ft². I'm not sure how they got inches instead of feet because they didn't do any kind of conversion that I can tell. I tried following the units to see how they got inches but I'm not sure. Shouldn't the answer be in feet, and if not how is it inches?
rockets nozzle rocket-equation
rockets nozzle rocket-equation
New contributor
New contributor
edited 2 hours ago
Russell Borogove
87k3291376
87k3291376
New contributor
asked 3 hours ago
MAP3MAP3
132
132
New contributor
New contributor
$begingroup$
You can learn more about MathJax for equations here. I removed therocketlab
tag; after reading that the address and original text was from circa 1967, it doesn't seem to be related to the same company that the tag refers to.
$endgroup$
– uhoh
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
This is really a no-good equation because it has pounds mass (in the flowrate) over pounds force (in the press) outside the radical. It should be the mass flowrate in every engineer's favorite unit, slugs/sec. See Sutton p. 61 pyrobin.com/files/Rocket%20Propulsion%20Elements.pdf
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
@OrganicMarble Are the units for $R$ supposed to be ft-lbf / lbm R?
$endgroup$
– Russell Borogove
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
@RussellBorogove actually no. To be consistent it should be ft-lbf / slug R engineeringtoolbox.com/…
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
2 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@OrganicMarble Same dimensions, at least.
$endgroup$
– Russell Borogove
2 hours ago
|
show 2 more comments
$begingroup$
You can learn more about MathJax for equations here. I removed therocketlab
tag; after reading that the address and original text was from circa 1967, it doesn't seem to be related to the same company that the tag refers to.
$endgroup$
– uhoh
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
This is really a no-good equation because it has pounds mass (in the flowrate) over pounds force (in the press) outside the radical. It should be the mass flowrate in every engineer's favorite unit, slugs/sec. See Sutton p. 61 pyrobin.com/files/Rocket%20Propulsion%20Elements.pdf
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
@OrganicMarble Are the units for $R$ supposed to be ft-lbf / lbm R?
$endgroup$
– Russell Borogove
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
@RussellBorogove actually no. To be consistent it should be ft-lbf / slug R engineeringtoolbox.com/…
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
2 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@OrganicMarble Same dimensions, at least.
$endgroup$
– Russell Borogove
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
You can learn more about MathJax for equations here. I removed the
rocketlab
tag; after reading that the address and original text was from circa 1967, it doesn't seem to be related to the same company that the tag refers to.$endgroup$
– uhoh
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
You can learn more about MathJax for equations here. I removed the
rocketlab
tag; after reading that the address and original text was from circa 1967, it doesn't seem to be related to the same company that the tag refers to.$endgroup$
– uhoh
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
This is really a no-good equation because it has pounds mass (in the flowrate) over pounds force (in the press) outside the radical. It should be the mass flowrate in every engineer's favorite unit, slugs/sec. See Sutton p. 61 pyrobin.com/files/Rocket%20Propulsion%20Elements.pdf
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
This is really a no-good equation because it has pounds mass (in the flowrate) over pounds force (in the press) outside the radical. It should be the mass flowrate in every engineer's favorite unit, slugs/sec. See Sutton p. 61 pyrobin.com/files/Rocket%20Propulsion%20Elements.pdf
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
@OrganicMarble Are the units for $R$ supposed to be ft-lbf / lbm R?
$endgroup$
– Russell Borogove
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
@OrganicMarble Are the units for $R$ supposed to be ft-lbf / lbm R?
$endgroup$
– Russell Borogove
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
@RussellBorogove actually no. To be consistent it should be ft-lbf / slug R engineeringtoolbox.com/…
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
@RussellBorogove actually no. To be consistent it should be ft-lbf / slug R engineeringtoolbox.com/…
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
2 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
@OrganicMarble Same dimensions, at least.
$endgroup$
– Russell Borogove
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
@OrganicMarble Same dimensions, at least.
$endgroup$
– Russell Borogove
2 hours ago
|
show 2 more comments
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
$R$ and $g_c$ each have a foot component in their units; therefore the feet cancel out when $R$ is divided by $g_c$.
$P_t$ is in pounds per square inch; since you're dividing by that, it's effectively units of square inch per pound, which is where the square inches in the answer comes from.
The rest of the unit cancellation is confusing because of the use of pounds as both a unit of mass and a unit of force (weight). This thread on thespacerace.com discusses the different ways of presenting your equation; the money quote is here:
Outside the square root, my equation uses slugs for the mass flow rate, while the other equation uses pounds (i.e. weight). To convert pounds to slugs we must divide by gc outside the square root.
Inside the square root, my equation uses R' equal to 49,720 ft-lb/slug-R, while the other equation uses 1545.32 ft-lb/lb-R. To convert ft-lb/lb-R to ft-lb/slug-R we must multiple by gc inside the square root.
The combination of these two conversion factors is,
1/gc * (gc)^1/2 = 1/gc^1/2
therefore we end up with gc in the demoninator inside the square root.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Nice edit, I was just going ask about that unit on gamma....
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
2 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
Zing! Yeah, I misread the unit attribution.
$endgroup$
– Russell Borogove
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
It's not the right pounds though outside the radical. Bad equation! Bad! (Hits equation on nose with rolled up newspaper)
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
Ugh, flowrate being mass rather than force? Maybe I'll delete everything except the inch/foot portion of my analysis, since this is way out of my wheelhouse.
$endgroup$
– Russell Borogove
2 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
That equation as you give it with the values you supply is a bad mish-mash of units. It's painful to do this in the English system, but gather your courage, we can get through it.
You must specify the flowrate in $frac{slugs}{sec}$. Yes, slugs, the real engineer's unit of massTM. A slug is 1 $frac {lbf - sec^2} {ft}$ and equates to ~ 32.2 lbm. So flowrate in $frac{slugs}{sec}$ has the units of $frac{lbf-sec}{ft}$.
You also must specify the pressure in $frac{lbf}{ft^2}$.
Dividing through you get outside the radical the units of $ft-sec$.
Inside the radical the gas constant is $frac{ft-lbf}{slug-R}$. The R cancels out with the temperature unit. gamma is dimensionless.
So if you substitute in $frac{lbf- sec^2}{ft}$ for the slug, you end up with $frac{ft^2}{sec^2}$ inside the radical.
Taking the square root, it's $frac{ft}{sec}$, then multiply by the $ft-sec$ outside the radical, to get $ft^2$.
Welcome to the world of Apollo and Shuttle rocket engine calculations.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Welcome to the world of Apollo and Shuttle rocket engine calculations and real engineers.
$endgroup$
– uhoh
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
Real engineers go metric, not like those amateurs at NASA in the old days.
$endgroup$
– Russell Borogove
2 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
I was caught in the transition, my books in college had both. Shuttle and Apollo were all English, ISS is metric. Either is OK if you are used to it but metric is a lot more intuitive.
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
I understand how you got ft^2 but in the example problem they got in^2 without doing any kind of feet -> inches conversion that I can tell at least, which is why I was confused.
$endgroup$
– MAP3
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
My eyes glaze over when they divide lbm by lbf and have them cancel out. That's just wrong so you can quit reading right there. It looks superficially ok but it's like cancelling feet with centistokes.
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
1 hour ago
add a comment |
Your Answer
StackExchange.ifUsing("editor", function () {
return StackExchange.using("mathjaxEditing", function () {
StackExchange.MarkdownEditor.creationCallbacks.add(function (editor, postfix) {
StackExchange.mathjaxEditing.prepareWmdForMathJax(editor, postfix, [["$", "$"], ["\\(","\\)"]]);
});
});
}, "mathjax-editing");
StackExchange.ready(function() {
var channelOptions = {
tags: "".split(" "),
id: "508"
};
initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);
StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function() {
// Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled) {
StackExchange.using("snippets", function() {
createEditor();
});
}
else {
createEditor();
}
});
function createEditor() {
StackExchange.prepareEditor({
heartbeatType: 'answer',
autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
convertImagesToLinks: false,
noModals: true,
showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
reputationToPostImages: null,
bindNavPrevention: true,
postfix: "",
imageUploader: {
brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
allowUrls: true
},
noCode: true, onDemand: true,
discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
});
}
});
MAP3 is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
StackExchange.ready(
function () {
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fspace.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f34711%2fissue-with-units-for-a-rocket-nozzle-throat-area-problem%23new-answer', 'question_page');
}
);
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
$R$ and $g_c$ each have a foot component in their units; therefore the feet cancel out when $R$ is divided by $g_c$.
$P_t$ is in pounds per square inch; since you're dividing by that, it's effectively units of square inch per pound, which is where the square inches in the answer comes from.
The rest of the unit cancellation is confusing because of the use of pounds as both a unit of mass and a unit of force (weight). This thread on thespacerace.com discusses the different ways of presenting your equation; the money quote is here:
Outside the square root, my equation uses slugs for the mass flow rate, while the other equation uses pounds (i.e. weight). To convert pounds to slugs we must divide by gc outside the square root.
Inside the square root, my equation uses R' equal to 49,720 ft-lb/slug-R, while the other equation uses 1545.32 ft-lb/lb-R. To convert ft-lb/lb-R to ft-lb/slug-R we must multiple by gc inside the square root.
The combination of these two conversion factors is,
1/gc * (gc)^1/2 = 1/gc^1/2
therefore we end up with gc in the demoninator inside the square root.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Nice edit, I was just going ask about that unit on gamma....
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
2 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
Zing! Yeah, I misread the unit attribution.
$endgroup$
– Russell Borogove
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
It's not the right pounds though outside the radical. Bad equation! Bad! (Hits equation on nose with rolled up newspaper)
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
Ugh, flowrate being mass rather than force? Maybe I'll delete everything except the inch/foot portion of my analysis, since this is way out of my wheelhouse.
$endgroup$
– Russell Borogove
2 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
$R$ and $g_c$ each have a foot component in their units; therefore the feet cancel out when $R$ is divided by $g_c$.
$P_t$ is in pounds per square inch; since you're dividing by that, it's effectively units of square inch per pound, which is where the square inches in the answer comes from.
The rest of the unit cancellation is confusing because of the use of pounds as both a unit of mass and a unit of force (weight). This thread on thespacerace.com discusses the different ways of presenting your equation; the money quote is here:
Outside the square root, my equation uses slugs for the mass flow rate, while the other equation uses pounds (i.e. weight). To convert pounds to slugs we must divide by gc outside the square root.
Inside the square root, my equation uses R' equal to 49,720 ft-lb/slug-R, while the other equation uses 1545.32 ft-lb/lb-R. To convert ft-lb/lb-R to ft-lb/slug-R we must multiple by gc inside the square root.
The combination of these two conversion factors is,
1/gc * (gc)^1/2 = 1/gc^1/2
therefore we end up with gc in the demoninator inside the square root.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Nice edit, I was just going ask about that unit on gamma....
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
2 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
Zing! Yeah, I misread the unit attribution.
$endgroup$
– Russell Borogove
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
It's not the right pounds though outside the radical. Bad equation! Bad! (Hits equation on nose with rolled up newspaper)
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
Ugh, flowrate being mass rather than force? Maybe I'll delete everything except the inch/foot portion of my analysis, since this is way out of my wheelhouse.
$endgroup$
– Russell Borogove
2 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
$R$ and $g_c$ each have a foot component in their units; therefore the feet cancel out when $R$ is divided by $g_c$.
$P_t$ is in pounds per square inch; since you're dividing by that, it's effectively units of square inch per pound, which is where the square inches in the answer comes from.
The rest of the unit cancellation is confusing because of the use of pounds as both a unit of mass and a unit of force (weight). This thread on thespacerace.com discusses the different ways of presenting your equation; the money quote is here:
Outside the square root, my equation uses slugs for the mass flow rate, while the other equation uses pounds (i.e. weight). To convert pounds to slugs we must divide by gc outside the square root.
Inside the square root, my equation uses R' equal to 49,720 ft-lb/slug-R, while the other equation uses 1545.32 ft-lb/lb-R. To convert ft-lb/lb-R to ft-lb/slug-R we must multiple by gc inside the square root.
The combination of these two conversion factors is,
1/gc * (gc)^1/2 = 1/gc^1/2
therefore we end up with gc in the demoninator inside the square root.
$endgroup$
$R$ and $g_c$ each have a foot component in their units; therefore the feet cancel out when $R$ is divided by $g_c$.
$P_t$ is in pounds per square inch; since you're dividing by that, it's effectively units of square inch per pound, which is where the square inches in the answer comes from.
The rest of the unit cancellation is confusing because of the use of pounds as both a unit of mass and a unit of force (weight). This thread on thespacerace.com discusses the different ways of presenting your equation; the money quote is here:
Outside the square root, my equation uses slugs for the mass flow rate, while the other equation uses pounds (i.e. weight). To convert pounds to slugs we must divide by gc outside the square root.
Inside the square root, my equation uses R' equal to 49,720 ft-lb/slug-R, while the other equation uses 1545.32 ft-lb/lb-R. To convert ft-lb/lb-R to ft-lb/slug-R we must multiple by gc inside the square root.
The combination of these two conversion factors is,
1/gc * (gc)^1/2 = 1/gc^1/2
therefore we end up with gc in the demoninator inside the square root.
edited 2 hours ago
answered 3 hours ago
Russell BorogoveRussell Borogove
87k3291376
87k3291376
$begingroup$
Nice edit, I was just going ask about that unit on gamma....
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
2 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
Zing! Yeah, I misread the unit attribution.
$endgroup$
– Russell Borogove
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
It's not the right pounds though outside the radical. Bad equation! Bad! (Hits equation on nose with rolled up newspaper)
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
Ugh, flowrate being mass rather than force? Maybe I'll delete everything except the inch/foot portion of my analysis, since this is way out of my wheelhouse.
$endgroup$
– Russell Borogove
2 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Nice edit, I was just going ask about that unit on gamma....
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
2 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
Zing! Yeah, I misread the unit attribution.
$endgroup$
– Russell Borogove
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
It's not the right pounds though outside the radical. Bad equation! Bad! (Hits equation on nose with rolled up newspaper)
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
Ugh, flowrate being mass rather than force? Maybe I'll delete everything except the inch/foot portion of my analysis, since this is way out of my wheelhouse.
$endgroup$
– Russell Borogove
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
Nice edit, I was just going ask about that unit on gamma....
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
Nice edit, I was just going ask about that unit on gamma....
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
2 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
Zing! Yeah, I misread the unit attribution.
$endgroup$
– Russell Borogove
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
Zing! Yeah, I misread the unit attribution.
$endgroup$
– Russell Borogove
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
It's not the right pounds though outside the radical. Bad equation! Bad! (Hits equation on nose with rolled up newspaper)
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
It's not the right pounds though outside the radical. Bad equation! Bad! (Hits equation on nose with rolled up newspaper)
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
Ugh, flowrate being mass rather than force? Maybe I'll delete everything except the inch/foot portion of my analysis, since this is way out of my wheelhouse.
$endgroup$
– Russell Borogove
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
Ugh, flowrate being mass rather than force? Maybe I'll delete everything except the inch/foot portion of my analysis, since this is way out of my wheelhouse.
$endgroup$
– Russell Borogove
2 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
That equation as you give it with the values you supply is a bad mish-mash of units. It's painful to do this in the English system, but gather your courage, we can get through it.
You must specify the flowrate in $frac{slugs}{sec}$. Yes, slugs, the real engineer's unit of massTM. A slug is 1 $frac {lbf - sec^2} {ft}$ and equates to ~ 32.2 lbm. So flowrate in $frac{slugs}{sec}$ has the units of $frac{lbf-sec}{ft}$.
You also must specify the pressure in $frac{lbf}{ft^2}$.
Dividing through you get outside the radical the units of $ft-sec$.
Inside the radical the gas constant is $frac{ft-lbf}{slug-R}$. The R cancels out with the temperature unit. gamma is dimensionless.
So if you substitute in $frac{lbf- sec^2}{ft}$ for the slug, you end up with $frac{ft^2}{sec^2}$ inside the radical.
Taking the square root, it's $frac{ft}{sec}$, then multiply by the $ft-sec$ outside the radical, to get $ft^2$.
Welcome to the world of Apollo and Shuttle rocket engine calculations.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Welcome to the world of Apollo and Shuttle rocket engine calculations and real engineers.
$endgroup$
– uhoh
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
Real engineers go metric, not like those amateurs at NASA in the old days.
$endgroup$
– Russell Borogove
2 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
I was caught in the transition, my books in college had both. Shuttle and Apollo were all English, ISS is metric. Either is OK if you are used to it but metric is a lot more intuitive.
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
I understand how you got ft^2 but in the example problem they got in^2 without doing any kind of feet -> inches conversion that I can tell at least, which is why I was confused.
$endgroup$
– MAP3
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
My eyes glaze over when they divide lbm by lbf and have them cancel out. That's just wrong so you can quit reading right there. It looks superficially ok but it's like cancelling feet with centistokes.
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
1 hour ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
That equation as you give it with the values you supply is a bad mish-mash of units. It's painful to do this in the English system, but gather your courage, we can get through it.
You must specify the flowrate in $frac{slugs}{sec}$. Yes, slugs, the real engineer's unit of massTM. A slug is 1 $frac {lbf - sec^2} {ft}$ and equates to ~ 32.2 lbm. So flowrate in $frac{slugs}{sec}$ has the units of $frac{lbf-sec}{ft}$.
You also must specify the pressure in $frac{lbf}{ft^2}$.
Dividing through you get outside the radical the units of $ft-sec$.
Inside the radical the gas constant is $frac{ft-lbf}{slug-R}$. The R cancels out with the temperature unit. gamma is dimensionless.
So if you substitute in $frac{lbf- sec^2}{ft}$ for the slug, you end up with $frac{ft^2}{sec^2}$ inside the radical.
Taking the square root, it's $frac{ft}{sec}$, then multiply by the $ft-sec$ outside the radical, to get $ft^2$.
Welcome to the world of Apollo and Shuttle rocket engine calculations.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Welcome to the world of Apollo and Shuttle rocket engine calculations and real engineers.
$endgroup$
– uhoh
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
Real engineers go metric, not like those amateurs at NASA in the old days.
$endgroup$
– Russell Borogove
2 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
I was caught in the transition, my books in college had both. Shuttle and Apollo were all English, ISS is metric. Either is OK if you are used to it but metric is a lot more intuitive.
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
I understand how you got ft^2 but in the example problem they got in^2 without doing any kind of feet -> inches conversion that I can tell at least, which is why I was confused.
$endgroup$
– MAP3
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
My eyes glaze over when they divide lbm by lbf and have them cancel out. That's just wrong so you can quit reading right there. It looks superficially ok but it's like cancelling feet with centistokes.
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
1 hour ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
That equation as you give it with the values you supply is a bad mish-mash of units. It's painful to do this in the English system, but gather your courage, we can get through it.
You must specify the flowrate in $frac{slugs}{sec}$. Yes, slugs, the real engineer's unit of massTM. A slug is 1 $frac {lbf - sec^2} {ft}$ and equates to ~ 32.2 lbm. So flowrate in $frac{slugs}{sec}$ has the units of $frac{lbf-sec}{ft}$.
You also must specify the pressure in $frac{lbf}{ft^2}$.
Dividing through you get outside the radical the units of $ft-sec$.
Inside the radical the gas constant is $frac{ft-lbf}{slug-R}$. The R cancels out with the temperature unit. gamma is dimensionless.
So if you substitute in $frac{lbf- sec^2}{ft}$ for the slug, you end up with $frac{ft^2}{sec^2}$ inside the radical.
Taking the square root, it's $frac{ft}{sec}$, then multiply by the $ft-sec$ outside the radical, to get $ft^2$.
Welcome to the world of Apollo and Shuttle rocket engine calculations.
$endgroup$
That equation as you give it with the values you supply is a bad mish-mash of units. It's painful to do this in the English system, but gather your courage, we can get through it.
You must specify the flowrate in $frac{slugs}{sec}$. Yes, slugs, the real engineer's unit of massTM. A slug is 1 $frac {lbf - sec^2} {ft}$ and equates to ~ 32.2 lbm. So flowrate in $frac{slugs}{sec}$ has the units of $frac{lbf-sec}{ft}$.
You also must specify the pressure in $frac{lbf}{ft^2}$.
Dividing through you get outside the radical the units of $ft-sec$.
Inside the radical the gas constant is $frac{ft-lbf}{slug-R}$. The R cancels out with the temperature unit. gamma is dimensionless.
So if you substitute in $frac{lbf- sec^2}{ft}$ for the slug, you end up with $frac{ft^2}{sec^2}$ inside the radical.
Taking the square root, it's $frac{ft}{sec}$, then multiply by the $ft-sec$ outside the radical, to get $ft^2$.
Welcome to the world of Apollo and Shuttle rocket engine calculations.
edited 1 hour ago
answered 2 hours ago
Organic MarbleOrganic Marble
58.1k3159248
58.1k3159248
$begingroup$
Welcome to the world of Apollo and Shuttle rocket engine calculations and real engineers.
$endgroup$
– uhoh
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
Real engineers go metric, not like those amateurs at NASA in the old days.
$endgroup$
– Russell Borogove
2 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
I was caught in the transition, my books in college had both. Shuttle and Apollo were all English, ISS is metric. Either is OK if you are used to it but metric is a lot more intuitive.
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
I understand how you got ft^2 but in the example problem they got in^2 without doing any kind of feet -> inches conversion that I can tell at least, which is why I was confused.
$endgroup$
– MAP3
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
My eyes glaze over when they divide lbm by lbf and have them cancel out. That's just wrong so you can quit reading right there. It looks superficially ok but it's like cancelling feet with centistokes.
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
1 hour ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Welcome to the world of Apollo and Shuttle rocket engine calculations and real engineers.
$endgroup$
– uhoh
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
Real engineers go metric, not like those amateurs at NASA in the old days.
$endgroup$
– Russell Borogove
2 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
I was caught in the transition, my books in college had both. Shuttle and Apollo were all English, ISS is metric. Either is OK if you are used to it but metric is a lot more intuitive.
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
I understand how you got ft^2 but in the example problem they got in^2 without doing any kind of feet -> inches conversion that I can tell at least, which is why I was confused.
$endgroup$
– MAP3
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
My eyes glaze over when they divide lbm by lbf and have them cancel out. That's just wrong so you can quit reading right there. It looks superficially ok but it's like cancelling feet with centistokes.
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
Welcome to the world of Apollo and Shuttle rocket engine calculations and real engineers.
$endgroup$
– uhoh
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
Welcome to the world of Apollo and Shuttle rocket engine calculations and real engineers.
$endgroup$
– uhoh
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
Real engineers go metric, not like those amateurs at NASA in the old days.
$endgroup$
– Russell Borogove
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
Real engineers go metric, not like those amateurs at NASA in the old days.
$endgroup$
– Russell Borogove
2 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
I was caught in the transition, my books in college had both. Shuttle and Apollo were all English, ISS is metric. Either is OK if you are used to it but metric is a lot more intuitive.
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
I was caught in the transition, my books in college had both. Shuttle and Apollo were all English, ISS is metric. Either is OK if you are used to it but metric is a lot more intuitive.
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
I understand how you got ft^2 but in the example problem they got in^2 without doing any kind of feet -> inches conversion that I can tell at least, which is why I was confused.
$endgroup$
– MAP3
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
I understand how you got ft^2 but in the example problem they got in^2 without doing any kind of feet -> inches conversion that I can tell at least, which is why I was confused.
$endgroup$
– MAP3
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
My eyes glaze over when they divide lbm by lbf and have them cancel out. That's just wrong so you can quit reading right there. It looks superficially ok but it's like cancelling feet with centistokes.
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
My eyes glaze over when they divide lbm by lbf and have them cancel out. That's just wrong so you can quit reading right there. It looks superficially ok but it's like cancelling feet with centistokes.
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
1 hour ago
add a comment |
MAP3 is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
MAP3 is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
MAP3 is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
MAP3 is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
Thanks for contributing an answer to Space Exploration Stack Exchange!
- Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!
But avoid …
- Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.
- Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.
Use MathJax to format equations. MathJax reference.
To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
StackExchange.ready(
function () {
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fspace.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f34711%2fissue-with-units-for-a-rocket-nozzle-throat-area-problem%23new-answer', 'question_page');
}
);
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
$begingroup$
You can learn more about MathJax for equations here. I removed the
rocketlab
tag; after reading that the address and original text was from circa 1967, it doesn't seem to be related to the same company that the tag refers to.$endgroup$
– uhoh
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
This is really a no-good equation because it has pounds mass (in the flowrate) over pounds force (in the press) outside the radical. It should be the mass flowrate in every engineer's favorite unit, slugs/sec. See Sutton p. 61 pyrobin.com/files/Rocket%20Propulsion%20Elements.pdf
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
@OrganicMarble Are the units for $R$ supposed to be ft-lbf / lbm R?
$endgroup$
– Russell Borogove
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
@RussellBorogove actually no. To be consistent it should be ft-lbf / slug R engineeringtoolbox.com/…
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
2 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@OrganicMarble Same dimensions, at least.
$endgroup$
– Russell Borogove
2 hours ago